Plasma Theory of Redshift and Deflection of Light

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18 years 9 months ago #17139 by JMB
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Thomas</i>
<br />I have already mentioned in a different thread my theory for the Redshift of Galaxies , which essentially suggests that the light waves are stretched by the electric 'micro'field due to the charges in intergalactic space...

Although the suggested mechanism is to a certain degree still somewhat speculative (as it is not based on currently known effects)..,

Any comments on this are welcome.
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The study of light-matter interactions is named spectroscopy. The CREIL effect is an ordinary spectroscopic effect which shifts the frequencies.

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18 years 9 months ago #10412 by Thomas
Replied by Thomas on topic Reply from Thomas Smid
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JMB</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Thomas</i>
<br />I have already mentioned in a different thread my theory for the Redshift of Galaxies , which essentially suggests that the light waves are stretched by the electric 'micro'field due to the charges in intergalactic space...

Although the suggested mechanism is to a certain degree still somewhat speculative (as it is not based on currently known effects)..,

Any comments on this are welcome.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The study of light-matter interactions is named spectroscopy. The CREIL effect is an ordinary spectroscopic effect which shifts the frequencies.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think I have asked this already in a different thread: has the CREIL mechanism then be confirmed for atom densities less than 1o^12 cm^-3? The point is that for densities such that the average distance between the scatterers is less than the wavelength, one should not expect any phase-coherent scattering. The redshifted signal would be multiple scattered in all directions and the observed object would become completely blurred in the process.


Thomas

www.physicsmyths.org.uk
www.plasmaphysics.org.uk

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18 years 9 months ago #17253 by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Thomas</i>
has the CREIL mechanism then be confirmed for atom densities less than 1o^12 cm^-3? The point is that for densities such that the average distance between the scatterers is less than the wavelength, one should not expect any phase-coherent scattering.
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Coherent optics works at any density provided that the "column density" is sufficient. To see this, you can look at the theory of the coherent interactions and zoom it so that the density decreases. Experimentally, you have the example of the refraction which works at the level of the satellites...

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18 years 9 months ago #10414 by Thomas
Replied by Thomas on topic Reply from Thomas Smid
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JMB</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Thomas</i>
has the CREIL mechanism then be confirmed for atom densities less than 1o^12 cm^-3? The point is that for densities such that the average distance between the scatterers is less than the wavelength, one should not expect any phase-coherent scattering.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Coherent optics works at any density provided that the "column density" is sufficient. To see this, you can look at the theory of the coherent interactions and zoom it so that the density decreases. Experimentally, you have the example of the refraction which works at the level of the satellites...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I don't think that you will observe refraction in the visible region of the spectrum at satellite level. The density of the atmosphere at let's say a height of 1000 km is just about 10^6 cm^-3. Phase-coherent effects at this height should thus require a wavelength of at least 10^-2 cm (which is in the far infrared).

Thomas

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18 years 9 months ago #17254 by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Thomas</i>
I don't think that you will observe refraction in the visible region of the spectrum at satellite level.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, directly not, but if the scattering was incoherent, a blur of the images would be observed.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The density of the atmosphere at let's say a height of 1000 km is just about 10^6 cm^-3. Phase-coherent effects at this height should thus require a wavelength of at least 10^-2 cm (which is in the far infrared).
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You must look at the mechanism of the coherent scattering: individually, each molecule radiates a scattered field in all directions (almost), but the interference of the fields destroys them in all directions, forward and backwards, except in the direction of the exciting field, supposing that there are no fluctuations producing an incoherent scattering (Rayleigh or Raman).
An important incoherent scattering requires a high column density (compare the blue of the sky with the Sun)

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18 years 9 months ago #10420 by Thomas
Replied by Thomas on topic Reply from Thomas Smid
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JMB</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Thomas</i>
I don't think that you will observe refraction in the visible region of the spectrum at satellite level.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, directly not, but if the scattering was incoherent, a blur of the images would be observed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Any scattering <i>is</i> incoherent at this height for wavelengths in the visible region and shorter wavelengths, so images will be blurred if the optical depth is large (which at such low densities is only the case for resonance scattering i.e. within spectral lines).

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JMB</i>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Thomas</i>
The density of the atmosphere at let's say a height of 1000 km is just about 10^6 cm^-3. Phase-coherent effects at this height should thus require a wavelength of at least 10^-2 cm (which is in the far infrared).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
You must look at the mechanism of the coherent scattering: individually, each molecule radiates a scattered field in all directions (almost), but the interference of the fields destroys them in all directions, forward and backwards, except in the direction of the exciting field, supposing that there are no fluctuations producing an incoherent scattering (Rayleigh or Raman).
An important incoherent scattering requires a high column density (compare the blue of the sky with the Sun)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The point is that Rayleigh scattering in the lower atmosphere <i>is</i> not important. The total scattered radiation we receive from a clear sky is at best about 10% of the direct solar illumination. In principle there should be none at all as the wavelength of light is much larger than the distance between two molecules in the atmosphere i.e. we should merely have a coherent forward scattering. But the number of molecules within a wavelength is not infinite but has a finite number with statistical variance. At ground level, the average distance between two molecules is 1/250 of the wavelength at 5000 A, so the relative statistical variance is 1/sqrt(250)=6*10^-2. Now the Fraunhofer criterion for a perfectly smooth surface (i.e. perfectly coherent scattering) says that the variance has to be less than 1/32 of the wavelength. However, 6*10^-2 is larger than 1/32 (by a factor 2) so there is no perfectly coherent scattering in this case, but a small contribution of incoherent scattering as well. It is this which (in my opinion anyway) is observed as the sky blue.

Thomas


www.physicsmyths.org.uk
www.plasmaphysics.org.uk

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