For Dr. Tom Van Flandern

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Especially for people like Stephen Speicher, Steve Carlip, Tom Van Flandern, I put this donation amount as $10,000/-<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I don't understand why you have grouped me with people who have the opposite opinion about the speed of gravity. -|Tom|-

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I don't understand why you have grouped me with people who have the opposite opinion about the speed of gravity. -|Tom|-
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Even though our views are same about speed of gravity, our views about speed propagation of forces are not same. It is all about fundamental concept of force in general, be it gravitational force or mechanical force

Be it you, stephen speicher, steve carlip, sergei kopekin, clifford will, Asada etc, all you people in world say that in Newtonian mechanics, when we release applied force, it's effect propagate through decompression waves with speed of sound. I say, NO, it's effect propagate instantaneously regardless of existence and propagation of decompression waves.

So you all people in "world" are my "enemy".....

-Abhi.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Abhi]: all you people in world say that in Newtonian mechanics, when we release applied force, it's effect propagate through decompression waves with speed of sound. I say, NO, it's effect propagate instantaneously regardless of existence and propagation of decompression waves.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Your writing is very confusing to read. Once again, I must not know what you mean, because what you appear to say is not true.

Mechanical forces such as pressure or impact or drag are necessarily applied only to the surfaces of bodies because they have no way to make contact with the interior. So the force is applied to the surface, and the surface nucleons transmit that force to the interior one necleon layer at a time until the force has spread all through the body at the speed of sound in the body. I am sure that not even you would disagree, because no other means exists to transmit this type of surface force throughout a solid body.

By contrast, gravitation obeys a "transparency principle" whereby the entire interior of any body is just as accessible to gravity as is the surface. So every nucleon within a body is acted upon independently and nearly instantly by gravity without need of any transmission of force from one nucleon to another. Although some parties on your list of names might argue that the transmission of this force occurs at the speed of light, while others (including me) argue that it transmits much faster than the speed of light, no one who is knowledgable in such matters would argue that gravity is transmitted at the speed of sound, the way a mechanical force is.

Nature's truth is one matter, which might be resolved by experiment. But the opinions of physicists is another matter, and your statement above appears to be a claim about the opinions of physicists instead of a claim about nature. If that is true, then I can state factually that the opinion you describe is not my opinion. And I am reasonably certain that it is not the opinion of anyone on your list.

So did I misunderstand you, or did you misunderstand me and others? -|Tom|-

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Your writing is very confusing to read. Once again, I must not know what you mean, because what you appear to say is not true.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Let me try to explain it.

(1) In quantum mechanics, physicists say that in hydrogen atom, if proton cease to exist, the electron will not know about it until the "virtual photons" carrying this information reaches to electron with speed of light.

I say, the electron will come to know about it instantaneously. And lot of people believe that this "virtual photon" theory is "disputed". I am not only one.

(2) In theory of relativity, physicists say that if sun cease to exist, the earth will come to know about it only after gravitational waves carrying this information reaches to earth after about eight minutes.

I say, the earth will come to know about it instantaneously. Lot of people, including you, believe it. I am not the only one. You know that speed of gravity is "disputed".

(3) But in Newtonian mechanics, suppose instead of sun and earth, there are two person, X and Y on earth. X is revolving around Y in uniform circular motion and they are tied to each other by a rope. Newtonian mechanics say that if the person at center i.e. person Y cut the rope, this information will propagate through decompression waves with speed of sound through rope. When this information reaches to X, only after that he will be thrown in tangential direction. Until that moment, the person X will keep revolving in circular motion even if source of centripetal force cease to exists.

I say, the person Y will be thrown in tangential direction instantaneously i.e. exactly at same moment person X cut the rope.

In three cases given above, first two are "disputed". There are lot of people who believe that it is still remains to be experimentally proved. But almost all the people in world believe that third case of Newtonian mechanics is experimentally proved and it is not "disputed". I say that it is never experimentally proved.

Just because you measured speed of light, it does not mean that you have measured speed of gravitational force

Just because you have measured speed of electricity, it does not mean that you have measured speed of magnetic force.

And just because you have measured speed of compression waves, it does not mean that you have measured speed of mechanical force.

When one moving body interacts with another body in space, kinetic energy of that moving body is propagated through waves, be it light, electricity or sound. So basically any kind of waves is the way of propagation of kinetic energy. And the speed of these waves depends upon density of medium in which it is propagating.

In opposite to this, force is the way of propagation of potential energy. Potential energy does not require any medium to propagae because potential energy is medium itself. And space iself is that medium. As the center of this space, source of potential energy(force) moves, the entire space medium moves with the source instantaneously.

It is long theory which I never wrote properly because in the end, you will ask me what is the proof of all this stuff? And I am after it in the beginning......

I will answer your other query in second post because all the text may not display in one post.

-Abhi.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Abhi]: In quantum mechanics, physicists say that in hydrogen atom, if proton cease to exist, the electron will not know about it until the "virtual photons" carrying this information reaches to electron with speed of light.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

The "virtual photon" theory recognizes (for most physicists) that virtual photons must propagate nearly instantaneously. That is why they are called "virtual", not "real".

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And lot of people believe that this "virtual photon" theory is "disputed". I am not only one.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

True. I am another. But the theory is at least consistent with the observed facts.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>In theory of relativity, physicists say that if sun cease to exist, the earth will come to know about it only after gravitational waves carrying this information reaches to earth after about eight minutes.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Most physicists are confused about the meaning of "gravitational waves" (GW) because so many recent textbooks have mistakenly implied that these are equivalent to changes in gravitational force (GF). When the definitions are correct, everyone is forced to recognize that GW propagate at speed c but cannot contribute to GF in any way. By contrast, GF is transmitted ftl, according to all six experiments that test this speed.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Newtonian mechanics say that if the person at center i.e. person Y cut the rope, this information will propagate through decompression waves with speed of sound through rope. When this information reaches to X, only after that he will be thrown in tangential direction. ... I say, the person Y will be thrown in tangential direction instantaneously i.e. exactly at same moment person X cut the rope.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

A rope is so rigid that we cannot observe its elasticity by eye. So let's substitute an elastic band for the rope and repeat your experiment. The revolving person then stretches the elastic band until the centripetal and centrifugal forces are equal. Now, when the band is cut, it does not instantly contract. Instead, it remains stretched for a moment until a compression wave travels from the cut end to the X-end of the band at the speed of sound. The band loses its elasticity and contracts as this compression wave passes.

But this picture requires that the X-end of the band remains stretched for a brief time after the cut happens, until the compression wave arrives. As long as the band near the X-end is stretched, it will continue to exert a force on the attached person or object. So that person X is not free to fly off its previous path until the band relaxes.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>almost all the people in world believe that third case of Newtonian mechanics is experimentally proved and it is not "disputed". I say that it is never experimentally proved.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

It is not disputed or tested because we have no reason to doubt the experimental result. Given a strong theoretical reason to expect one result, and no known reason to expect an exception, funding for such an experiment would be difficult to find.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>When one moving body interacts with another body in space, kinetic energy of that moving body is propagated through waves, be it light, electricity or sound. So basically any kind of waves is the way of propagation of kinetic energy. And the speed of these waves depends upon density of medium in which it is propagating.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

You lost me here. Kinetic energy is 1/2 m v^2. It does not matter if the moving body is moving through a medium or through a vacuum. There are many reasons to expect some sort of aether in space. As far as I can see, this is not one of them.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I will answer your other query in second post because all the text may not display in one post.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Messages may be as long as you please, although the number of readers will certainly drop off as message length increases. The preview mode can handle only relatively short messages, then cuts off. But that does not affect the posted messages. For example, this message just slightly exceeds what the preview can show. Try a fake reply and examine it in preview mode to see. -|Tom|-

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Mechanical forces such as pressure or impact or drag are necessarily applied only to the surfaces of bodies because they have no way to make contact with the interior. So the force is applied to the surface, and the surface nucleons transmit that force to the interior one necleon layer at a time until the force has spread all through the body at the speed of sound in the body. I am sure that not even you would disagree, because no other means exists to transmit this type of surface force throughout a solid body.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Yes, I do NOT DISAGREE with you. I agree that when we apply force or pressure to surface of elastic body, be is gas, liquid or solid, the force or pressure is transmitted from one molecule to another and not instantaneously.

But opposite is NOT true. When the force or pressure is applied and both bodies are in state of static equilibrium, then if one of the source of force moves in opposite direction of application of force, then this information is communicated to other force "instantaneously" and NOT from one molecules to another.

This is specifically what I am saying. If I transmitt force F = ma from point A to point B and even if takes time = t to reach to point B, there is no harm.

But suppose the force is reached to point B and exerting on point B. In this case point B is also exerting equal and opposite force F= -ma to balance it.

A/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\->B

Now If source of force at point A moves away and if it takes same time = t to reach this information to point B, then during this time interval t, source of force at A can take short route to reach point B which takes time t' where t' << t.

A

---

>B

So during this propagation delay of force, this source of force at A can exert twice force on point B even if it do not have capacity to do that. Using this extra generated force, it can do "free" work and this free work can lead to another free work....

How can this extra generated force be used to create extra energy? Please read my doc file sent to you via email. Do you think that the table will break down?

If yes then this means that table experienced 300g N force in downward direction and it could not exert upward force of same magnitude to balance it. So it just gave in.

We change the situation. Now consider that instead of table, the point M of system is supported by a small rope which is passed on a pulley. The point M of system and the whole system is at height h from ground. Other end of rope is tied to stones a mass of 299 Kg. Initially the mass of system and body is 200 kg. So gravity is exerting force 200g N on system+body and force 299g N on stones. So 200g N force will never be able to lift 299g N weight. But using the idea I have given in that file, you can generate extra force of 100g N at point M of which is tied to rope. So the point M of rope is experiencing 300g N force in downward direction. This extra force will be communicated through short rope over pulley to stones of weight 299g N. And this 300g N force can lift 299g N weight in upward direction during propagation delay.

Suppose during this propagation delay, system+body has lifted the stones to height h and system+ body has come down to ground and resting on it. Now we can remove stones of mass 98 Kg at height h and we can use just 201g N force to lift the system+body of weight 200g N at it's previous height h. Again we follow same technic, we generate extar force and again we lift stones weighing 299g N to height h. We remove stones of mass 98 Kg and.......we jus go on doing that.

What extra energy I am spending to lift these stones of mass 98+98+98... Kg to lift to height h?

Perhaps you will say that every time I will have to lift body to attach it to control point A of system. But I can esily afford to lift body of mass 100 Kg to lift to negligible height d << h from point G. I will have to spend energy 100*g*d but I am getting energy 98*g*h. As h >> d, hence 98*g*h >> 100*g*d

In any case I get extra energy. I will chose propagation delay in such a way that the force acting on point m of system+body remains 300g N until the stones reach to desired height h.

Now tell me where I am making mistake?

-Abhi.