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Quantized redshift anomaly
19 years 10 months ago #12394
by north
Replied by north on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by johnduff</i>
<br />Could you present a list of the 20 or so mechanisms which can cause a red shift. I can only come up with a few.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">From Apeiron Vol. 1, #9-10, pp. 35-44 (1991):
Table 1
Non-Velocity Redshift Mechanisms<ul>Year <font color="orange">Originator</font id="orange"> Mechanism<li>1917 <font color="orange">Einstein</font id="orange"> Electromagnetic repulsion</li><li>1929 <font color="orange">Zwicky</font id="orange"> Gravitational drag</li><li>1937 <font color="orange">Hubble</font id="orange"> Gravitational interaction</li><li>1949 <font color="orange">Tolman</font id="orange"> Extended expansion hypothesis</li><li>1949 <font color="orange">Weyl</font id="orange"> Quantum gravity</li><li>1954 <font color="orange">Finlay-Freundlic</font id="orange"> Photon-Photon interaction</li><li>1964 <font color="orange">Fürth</font id="orange"> Curved photon path</li><li>1972 <font color="orange">Pecker et al.</font id="orange"> Photon-Photon interaction</li><li>1974 <font color="orange">Hoyle-Narlikar</font id="orange"> Variable mass interaction</li><li>1975 <font color="orange">Konitz</font id="orange"> Non-Euclidean geometry</li><li>1976 <font color="orange">Pecker et al.</font id="orange"> Photon-scalar U-particle interaction</li><li>1976 <font color="orange">Segal</font id="orange"> Global and local time hypothesis</li><li>1976 <font color="orange">Jaakkola</font id="orange"> G-E coupling</li><li>1979 <font color="orange">Crawford</font id="orange"> Tidal force in curved space</li><li>1981 <font color="orange">Tifft</font id="orange"> Variable mass</li><li>1981 <font color="orange">Broberg</font id="orange"> Elementary quantum interaction</li><li>1984 <font color="orange">Ghosh</font id="orange"> Velocity-dependent inertial induction</li><li>1986 <font color="orange">Wolf</font id="orange"> Thermal correlations at source</li><li>1986 <font color="orange">Mathé</font id="orange"> Global and local time hypothesis</li><li>1986 <font color="orange">Pecker-Vigier</font id="orange"> Gravitational drag in Dirac ether</li></ul>Several more have come along since then, such as the graviton drag in elysium of MM. See the original reference for further details on mechanisms in the above table. -|Tom|-
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Tom
just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by johnduff</i>
<br />Could you present a list of the 20 or so mechanisms which can cause a red shift. I can only come up with a few.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">From Apeiron Vol. 1, #9-10, pp. 35-44 (1991):
Table 1
Non-Velocity Redshift Mechanisms<ul>Year <font color="orange">Originator</font id="orange"> Mechanism<li>1917 <font color="orange">Einstein</font id="orange"> Electromagnetic repulsion</li><li>1929 <font color="orange">Zwicky</font id="orange"> Gravitational drag</li><li>1937 <font color="orange">Hubble</font id="orange"> Gravitational interaction</li><li>1949 <font color="orange">Tolman</font id="orange"> Extended expansion hypothesis</li><li>1949 <font color="orange">Weyl</font id="orange"> Quantum gravity</li><li>1954 <font color="orange">Finlay-Freundlic</font id="orange"> Photon-Photon interaction</li><li>1964 <font color="orange">Fürth</font id="orange"> Curved photon path</li><li>1972 <font color="orange">Pecker et al.</font id="orange"> Photon-Photon interaction</li><li>1974 <font color="orange">Hoyle-Narlikar</font id="orange"> Variable mass interaction</li><li>1975 <font color="orange">Konitz</font id="orange"> Non-Euclidean geometry</li><li>1976 <font color="orange">Pecker et al.</font id="orange"> Photon-scalar U-particle interaction</li><li>1976 <font color="orange">Segal</font id="orange"> Global and local time hypothesis</li><li>1976 <font color="orange">Jaakkola</font id="orange"> G-E coupling</li><li>1979 <font color="orange">Crawford</font id="orange"> Tidal force in curved space</li><li>1981 <font color="orange">Tifft</font id="orange"> Variable mass</li><li>1981 <font color="orange">Broberg</font id="orange"> Elementary quantum interaction</li><li>1984 <font color="orange">Ghosh</font id="orange"> Velocity-dependent inertial induction</li><li>1986 <font color="orange">Wolf</font id="orange"> Thermal correlations at source</li><li>1986 <font color="orange">Mathé</font id="orange"> Global and local time hypothesis</li><li>1986 <font color="orange">Pecker-Vigier</font id="orange"> Gravitational drag in Dirac ether</li></ul>Several more have come along since then, such as the graviton drag in elysium of MM. See the original reference for further details on mechanisms in the above table. -|Tom|-
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Tom
just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?
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19 years 10 months ago #12548
by johnduff
Replied by johnduff on topic Reply from john williamson
Larry B.
Re the hubble constant units.
The units are in terms of velocity/distance , with velocity measured in kilometers/second, and distance measured in mega parsecs, which is a rather odd collection of units to put into a single equation.
H can be interpreted as a velocity which increases with distance. If we observe a red shift velocity of 70 km/sec, we can infer that the object is one MPc away. If the observed velocity is 140 km/sec, we would expect the distance to be 2 MPc.
To express H in SI units, we have to convert km/sec to meters/sec, giving a value for velocity of 70,000 m/sec.
MPc = Pc x 10^6 times 3.086 x 10^16 m/Pc = 3.086 x 10^22 m
Substituting into the velocity /distance expression, we obtain a Hubble constant of 2.26 x 10^(-18) m/sec/m. This is a bit of a mouthful to bandy about in a spirited discusion, hence the decision to adopt the odd units which are customary.
Note that we can elliminate the "meters" from the expression, leaving a remaining unit of " per second".
As a side note, the reciprical of the Hubble constant is a time length, and works out to be about 14 x 10^9 years. This is sometimes refered to as "The Hubble age of the universe."
Re the hubble constant units.
The units are in terms of velocity/distance , with velocity measured in kilometers/second, and distance measured in mega parsecs, which is a rather odd collection of units to put into a single equation.
H can be interpreted as a velocity which increases with distance. If we observe a red shift velocity of 70 km/sec, we can infer that the object is one MPc away. If the observed velocity is 140 km/sec, we would expect the distance to be 2 MPc.
To express H in SI units, we have to convert km/sec to meters/sec, giving a value for velocity of 70,000 m/sec.
MPc = Pc x 10^6 times 3.086 x 10^16 m/Pc = 3.086 x 10^22 m
Substituting into the velocity /distance expression, we obtain a Hubble constant of 2.26 x 10^(-18) m/sec/m. This is a bit of a mouthful to bandy about in a spirited discusion, hence the decision to adopt the odd units which are customary.
Note that we can elliminate the "meters" from the expression, leaving a remaining unit of " per second".
As a side note, the reciprical of the Hubble constant is a time length, and works out to be about 14 x 10^9 years. This is sometimes refered to as "The Hubble age of the universe."
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19 years 10 months ago #12170
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by north</i>
<br />just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If light comes from a star (a huge ball of plasma), it is not normally redshifted. So I would not expect thin plasmas dispersed through space to affect redshifts either. -|Tom|-
<br />just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If light comes from a star (a huge ball of plasma), it is not normally redshifted. So I would not expect thin plasmas dispersed through space to affect redshifts either. -|Tom|-
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19 years 10 months ago #12285
by north
Replied by north on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by north</i>
<br />just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If light comes from a star (a huge ball of plasma), it is not normally redshifted.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
explain, in detail your logic here.
So I would not expect thin plasmas dispersed through space to affect redshifts either. -|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
and yet Cosmic Plasmas are electromagnetic by nature, and so is light.there on the same plane here!!
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by north</i>
<br />just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If light comes from a star (a huge ball of plasma), it is not normally redshifted.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
explain, in detail your logic here.
So I would not expect thin plasmas dispersed through space to affect redshifts either. -|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
and yet Cosmic Plasmas are electromagnetic by nature, and so is light.there on the same plane here!!
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19 years 10 months ago #12397
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by north</i>
<br />explain, in detail your logic here.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I gave an example of a strong plasma that has no effect on redshift. If a strong plasma has no effect, why would a much weaker one?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">and yet Cosmic Plasmas are electromagnetic by nature, and so is light.there on the same plane here!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">That is a pun on the word "electromagnetic". Light has neither electricity nor magnetism. Plasmas may emit light, but at normal wavelengths. There is no imaginable physics that would allow plasmas to cause emitted light to shift to longer-than-normal wavelengths.
Or is your imagination better than mine? -|Tom|-
<br />explain, in detail your logic here.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I gave an example of a strong plasma that has no effect on redshift. If a strong plasma has no effect, why would a much weaker one?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">and yet Cosmic Plasmas are electromagnetic by nature, and so is light.there on the same plane here!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">That is a pun on the word "electromagnetic". Light has neither electricity nor magnetism. Plasmas may emit light, but at normal wavelengths. There is no imaginable physics that would allow plasmas to cause emitted light to shift to longer-than-normal wavelengths.
Or is your imagination better than mine? -|Tom|-
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19 years 10 months ago #12176
by north
Replied by north on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by north</i>
<br />just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If light comes from a star (a huge ball of plasma), it is not normally redshifted. So I would not expect thin plasmas dispersed through space to affect redshifts either. -|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
IF LIGHT COMES FROM A STAR?
if not from a star, what is your alternative from which comes!!??
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by north</i>
<br />just wondering why Cosmic Plasmas were not mentioned here? do you think they have no conseqence on red shift anomalies? if so why not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If light comes from a star (a huge ball of plasma), it is not normally redshifted. So I would not expect thin plasmas dispersed through space to affect redshifts either. -|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
IF LIGHT COMES FROM A STAR?
if not from a star, what is your alternative from which comes!!??
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