singularity

The tide is directed toward the massave body in a two body system There is a tiny tidal effect on the small mass in the system. If you measure the tide that the Earth/moon system generates it will be 90% on Earth. Is this ever measured? I read Newton calculated the tide on the as being about 50ft or so, but, that is not correct.(I believe)

> [Jim]: The tide is directed toward the massive body in a two body system. There is a tiny tidal effect on the small mass in the system.

Each body raises a tide on the other. Other things being equal, the more massive bady raises a bigger tide on the less massive one.

> [Jim]: If you measure the tide that the Earth/moon system generates it will be 90% on Earth. Is this ever measured? I read Newton calculated the tide on the as being about 50ft or so, but, that is not correct.(I believe)

I'm not sure what you mean by "tide". The average solid-body tide raised by the Moon on the Earth is about 3 feet. That raised by the Earth on the Moon is much larger. But because the Moon keeps the same face toward the Earth, the "tide" there is a permanent bulge toward the Earth. So nothing much changes on the Moon day-by-day because of the tide raised by Earth.

Those solid body tides raised by the moon on the Earth can be seen by very accurate geodetic satellites, but can't be noticed on Earth because everything for thousands of miles around is slowly lifted by the same amount.

Ocean tides are a rather different phenomenon. Those are unique to Earth (having the only oceans so far discovered), and are due to the horizontal flow of water relative to land, not to any lifting force. That is why ocean tides can get magnified in special places. Each day, when the Moon is pulling the whole Atlantic Ocean westward, a wide-mouth river that empties into the Bay of Fundy in Nova Scotia gets an excess portion of that Atlantic tide stuffed into its mouth. All that water flows upstream where the river narrows, making the tide higher and higher. Under optimal conditions, the ocean tides upstream can be as high as 50 feet.

Don't even ask about atmospheric tides, which are even more complex! And the effect of tides on orbits is yet another matter. -|Tom|-

I am not at all questioning effects of tidal force. It is cause that has me wondering about the data of tides on the moon. If the tide is measured on the moon where is the data kept? I am very interested in seeing and comparing the overall force the two bodies exert on each other. It is my belief tides are a logical result of inertia and that the effect is proportional to the relative mass of the two bodies. The current models of tides are quite accurate (as is an hour glass) but, have no explaination of the cause of tidal effects. Inertia will cause the tide to be higher at the Full/New moon position than at the 1st/3rd quarter position. There is no solar tidal effect in this explaination of tides.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Jim]: If the tide is measured on the moon where is the data kept?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

What data? The fixed, permanent tide in the Moon is shown in many technical papers that have determined the size of the Moon's bulge toward Earth. But because the Moon does not rotate relative to Earth, that bulge cannot move. And obviously, the Moon has no oceans or atmosphere to speak of, so those kinds of tides cannot exist there.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Jim]: I am very interested in seeing and comparing the overall force the two bodies exert on each other. ... The current models of tides ... have no explanation of the cause of tidal effects. There is no solar tidal effect in this explanation of tides.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Tides are well understood and easily explained. See chapter 6 in my book, <i>Dark Matter, Missing Planets and New Comets</i> (available on this web site), among the many books that explain this. Solar tides are important too, but generally only about 1/3 of lunar tides. -|Tom|-

This is not logical any more. The tide on the moon is causing the lunar bulge toward makes no sense at all. And as for solar tides on Mercury, remember Mercury spins on its axis unlike the moon. The "solar" tide on Venus should also be considered since Venus also spins on its axis.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Jim]: This is not logical any more. The tide on the moon is causing the lunar bulge toward makes no sense at all.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

As I said before, what do you mean by "tide"? You are obviously using the word in some unfamiliar way. The solid-body tide astronomers speak of is not the cause of the lunar bulge, it <i>is</i> the bulge.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Jim]: And as for solar tides on Mercury, remember Mercury spins on its axis unlike the moon. The "solar" tide on Venus should also be considered since Venus also spins on its axis.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

And your point is? These cases are well understood by conventional tidal theory. Mercury has a prolate shape, which is why it was captured into a 3-to-2 spin resonance instead of the more common 1-to-1. Venus has solid-body tides slightly larger than Earth's, but we have no spacecraft with the right instruments to observe these yet.

Because we are obviously speaking at cross-purposes here, I will hazard a quess that you are thinking of ocean tides, which so far can occur only on planet Earth, and are caused in a completely different way than solid-body tides, as I explained above. You really need to read up more on the subject if you wish to understand it better. -|Tom|-