Mathematical Obscurities in Special Relativity

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20 years 10 months ago #8045 by Jan
Replied by Jan on topic Reply from Jan Vink
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kc3mx</i>
<br />The discussion now illustrates one of the problems in special relativity. People dont understand it. Many books teach that the velocity of light is source independent. But if you read Einsteins papers this is not mentioned. The main postulate asserts that the speed of light is independent of the observers "state of motion". So it is observer independent. All observers measure the same velocity even though they are moving relative to each other. This doesnt say anything about the velocity of the source.

I dont understand what is meant by source dragging. Is this an experimental fact?
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I just called source dragging the process of the photon that can be viewed as a particle: the direction in which is travels is dependent of the source.

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20 years 10 months ago #7943 by kc3mx
Replied by kc3mx on topic Reply from Harry Ricker

I dont understand what is meant by source dragging. Is this an experimental fact?
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I just called source dragging the process of the photon that can be viewed as a particle: the direction in which is travels is dependent of the source.
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In the Sagnac experiment a beam of light is reflected by mirrors spinning on a table. The velocity of the light is different in the clockwise and counterclockwise directions, contrary to Einstein's special relativity. This suggests two possibilities: that the motion of the mirror changes the velocity of light upon reflection, or that there is an absolute frame that determines light velocity. There is no evidence to support the first possibility, but this seems to be what you are calling source dragging. In my view, the velocity of light is fixed in the earth centered laboratory reference frame, and this explains the Sagnac experiment and refutes Einstein's relativity, because the motion of the mirrors adds to and subtracts from the effective velocity of the light as it traverses the circuit around the spinning mirrors. But that does not preclude the possibility that the velocity is changed by reflection from the mirrors. Other evidence is used to rule out this possibility.

Do you think that the Sagnac experiment proves source dragging?

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20 years 9 months ago #8385 by tgill
Replied by tgill on topic Reply from Tepper L. Gill
Hi

The discussion is interesting and I am glad that some people are still trying to understand the Special Theory(OR WHY IDEAS COUNTER TO OUR INTUITION MUST BE REAL). I have a few comments that may be of interest.

1. First, as Tom noted earlier, Einstein postulated that the speed of light is constant for all observers. Using this, he derived the Lorentz transformations to enforce this postulate on all observers. Thus, the Lorentz transformations are the mathematical outcome of the postulates.

A postulate in physics is equivalent to a definiton in mathematics, which means that when you accept the postulates as physically correct, you essentially accept the whole theory, in the sense that it follows from correct mathematical deduction.

2. Einstein's assumption that the speed of light is constant came from the standard representation of Maxwell's equations (as stated by Einstein in a footnote to his second paper).

In this context,Feynman (among others)has consistenly called for the exploration of different formulations of the basic theories in the hope to find representations which do not have the many existing problems.

3. Einstein and everyone since, assumes that the correct clock to use in observing physical systems is the clock of the observer. "This is the zeroth postulate".

Here, we should realize that this postulate is quickly violated in order to explain how cosmic ray muons and other high energy particles arrive to earth from the top of the atmosphere, by using the clock of the particle (or the co-moving observer)and claiming time dilation or length contraction. Clearly, the distance form the top of the atmosphere is an objective number and if we use the clock of the observer, this cannot be explained.

4. Minkowski postulated that the correct way to combine space and time is to treat time as a forth coordinate, which created the four-geometry. "This is the third postulate".

I consider this last the most vexing. It imposes a geometry on physics based solely on philosophy with no physical justification. This is even considered a plus by many. It is the main reason, we do not have a version of relativistic mechanics which includes Newtonian Mechanics. Any attempt to go beyond the one particle formulation must contend with the famous No-Interaction Theorem, to the effect the any theory which requires a Hamiltonian formulation and, canonical variables, which transform like geometric coordinates is only compatible with non-interacting particles. All attempts to by-pass this problem has led to other problems which are no less vexing.

I will close by pointing out that the 3K background radiation offers an ideal preferred frame of reference, which is avalable to all observers (independent of the various cosmological conjectures about its origin). It is cause by radiation from charges and generates a macroscopic quantum effect (the Planck distribution), and yet it is only discussed in the context of Big-Bang cosmology.

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20 years 9 months ago #8265 by 1234567890
Replied by 1234567890 on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tgill</i>
<br />Hi

The discussion is interesting and I am glad that some people are still trying to understand the Special Theory(OR WHY IDEAS COUNTER TO OUR INTUITION MUST BE REAL). I have a few comments that may be of interest.

1. First, as Tom noted earlier, Einstein postulated that the speed of light is constant for all observers. Using this, he derived the Lorentz transformations to enforce this postulate on all observers. Thus, the Lorentz transformations are the mathematical outcome of the postulates.

A postulate in physics is equivalent to a definiton in mathematics, which means that when you accept the postulates as physically correct, you essentially accept the whole theory, in the sense that it follows from correct mathematical deduction.

2. Einstein's assumption that the speed of light is constant came from the standard representation of Maxwell's equations (as stated by Einstein in a footnote to his second paper).

In this context,Feynman (among others)has consistenly called for the exploration of different formulations of the basic theories in the hope to find representations which do not have the many existing problems.

3. Einstein and everyone since, assumes that the correct clock to use in observing physical systems is the clock of the observer. "This is the zeroth postulate".

Here, we should realize that this postulate is quickly violated in order to explain how cosmic ray muons and other high energy particles arrive to earth from the top of the atmosphere, by using the clock of the particle (or the co-moving observer)and claiming time dilation or length contraction. Clearly, the distance form the top of the atmosphere is an objective number and if we use the clock of the observer, this cannot be explained.

4. Minkowski postulated that the correct way to combine space and time is to treat time as a forth coordinate, which created the four-geometry. "This is the third postulate".

I consider this last the most vexing. It imposes a geometry on physics based solely on philosophy with no physical justification. This is even considered a plus by many. It is the main reason, we do not have a version of relativistic mechanics which includes Newtonian Mechanics. Any attempt to go beyond the one particle formulation must contend with the famous No-Interaction Theorem, to the effect the any theory which requires a Hamiltonian formulation and, canonical variables, which transform like geometric coordinates is only compatible with non-interacting particles. All attempts to by-pass this problem has led to other problems which are no less vexing.

I will close by pointing out that the 3K background radiation offers an ideal preferred frame of reference, which is avalable to all observers (independent of the various cosmological conjectures about its origin). It is cause by radiation from charges and generates a macroscopic quantum effect (the Planck distribution), and yet it is only discussed in the context of Big-Bang cosmology.


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You mispelt "fourth". In that sentence, the usage requires
the spelling of 4th as f-o-u-r-t-h and not "f-o-r-t-h" as
you provided.

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20 years 9 months ago #8169 by kc3mx
Replied by kc3mx on topic Reply from Harry Ricker
Some comments. First, a postulate is a mathematical axiom. Axioms are not refutable. The procedure is to check the predictions derived from theory based on the axioms against experiments. Now one problem is that both the theories of Lorentz and Einstein result in the Lorentz transformation. Further, the two theories are not easily separated experimentally, since both predict time dilation and length contraction. The problem is to devise an experiment which differentiates the predictions of the two different theories. This has not been done. So no experiment actually proves Einsteins version while disproving Lorentz's version. This fact is generally ignored by physics texts. Now some experiments do contradict Einstein, an example is Sagnac's experiment. But this is also ignored.

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20 years 9 months ago #8207 by John
Replied by John on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jan</i>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">SR is riddled with ambiguities where and how terms are specified, if at all specified©<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I disagree© Once you let go of simultaneity, it all starts to make mathematical sense© The physics never did and never will make sense©

I need to stress that my "rant" is by no means personal, but you probably understand©<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I do understand, but tire of trying to teach this weird, obsolete theory© The mental energy required to grok it is just not worth it, IMO© -|Tom|-

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FWIW, and temporarily, &lt;a href="http://pmol©org/SR/Thirdtwin©html"&gt; The Third Twin </a> may clarify some mistaught causal underpinnings of Special Relativity© K' can be K at a different time so everything is the same except, sometimes, the energy of the particles© Causal differences have to do with elongated particle lengths ¥added mass / energy¤ and elongated time marking observations instead of 'slow clocks'© Your mileage will almost certainly vary© FWIW©

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