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Meta model and use of Logic
21 years 11 months ago #3797
by heusdens
Replied by heusdens on topic Reply from rob
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
as soon as time involves as a result of an action then that is math, and logic only deals with time when is it known to be true for example: If you know it takes 2 seconds for your radio to turn on then you are using logic, but mist time related ideas are math
The intuitive mind
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Physic reality is motion or change happening in space and time, and logic deals with abstract categories.
As such logic does not deal with the physic reality, but only can deal with abstractions of physic reality. So logic is therefore a limited tool for exploring what happens in the physical reality.
That is why we don't habe a clue as to what gravity is all about, or what an electron is, or why nature behaves acc. to quantum mechanics, etc.
as soon as time involves as a result of an action then that is math, and logic only deals with time when is it known to be true for example: If you know it takes 2 seconds for your radio to turn on then you are using logic, but mist time related ideas are math
The intuitive mind
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Physic reality is motion or change happening in space and time, and logic deals with abstract categories.
As such logic does not deal with the physic reality, but only can deal with abstractions of physic reality. So logic is therefore a limited tool for exploring what happens in the physical reality.
That is why we don't habe a clue as to what gravity is all about, or what an electron is, or why nature behaves acc. to quantum mechanics, etc.
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21 years 11 months ago #3798
by makis
Replied by makis on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Pardon me for being so nasty, but the issue on hand was was about the relation between logic and physic reality.
Now you state that "logic does not deal with time" and I state "physics can't be timeless", so that means here the answer is that logic does not deal with physical reality. It has it's application outside of reality.
A nasty conclusion, it realy is!
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No problem my friend. That's a nasty and sticky subject anyay.
People deal with physical reality and device mathematical models for analyzing it, predicting future behavior and hopefully controlling it. Logic is just a way to organize thinking and infere from what has been demonstrated, or proven otherwise, to what holds as a physical law.
People very often device theories based on premises that cannot be proved. The results of these theories may sometimes come close to reality but the basic syllogism may be wrong in the first place. In that respect and use, logic has nothing to do with physical reality. It does when its use and conclusions are in line with reality. From assumptions to conclusions.
Pardon me for being so nasty, but the issue on hand was was about the relation between logic and physic reality.
Now you state that "logic does not deal with time" and I state "physics can't be timeless", so that means here the answer is that logic does not deal with physical reality. It has it's application outside of reality.
A nasty conclusion, it realy is!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
No problem my friend. That's a nasty and sticky subject anyay.
People deal with physical reality and device mathematical models for analyzing it, predicting future behavior and hopefully controlling it. Logic is just a way to organize thinking and infere from what has been demonstrated, or proven otherwise, to what holds as a physical law.
People very often device theories based on premises that cannot be proved. The results of these theories may sometimes come close to reality but the basic syllogism may be wrong in the first place. In that respect and use, logic has nothing to do with physical reality. It does when its use and conclusions are in line with reality. From assumptions to conclusions.
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21 years 11 months ago #3673
by heusdens
Replied by heusdens on topic Reply from rob
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
No problem my friend. That's a nasty and sticky subject anyay.
People deal with physical reality and device mathematical models for analyzing it, predicting future behavior and hopefully controlling it. Logic is just a way to organize thinking and infere from what has been demonstrated, or proven otherwise, to what holds as a physical law.
People very often device theories based on premises that cannot be proved. The results of these theories may sometimes come close to reality but the basic syllogism may be wrong in the first place. In that respect and use, logic has nothing to do with physical reality. It does when its use and conclusions are in line with reality. From assumptions to conclusions.
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Human knowledge and cognition is not in any way limited to using only abstract logic or mathematical models of reality.
The use of logic and complex mathermatical concepts is the language of a scientific elite, who is practicing physical theories far away from daily reality, and most of the time for no practical purpose whatsoever.
For most lay people, the non-scientifical interested public who have to pay their tax money for this scientific eclicism, this is not very comprehensible. Their speculative theoretical models, which can portray about anything, and even the most absurd things come into the picture, don't have much meaning, and do not realy contribute much to human understanding and perhaps invoke more confusion.
From our very material origin of our mind, it is understandable that, although there is no limit as to applications of scientific knowledge, in the sense of being able to live as a human and enhance the human society with the products of practical science, there will never be an all encompassing knowledge about everything in reality, so the absolute truth will never be available for humans, but there is no limit on finding relative truth.
No problem my friend. That's a nasty and sticky subject anyay.
People deal with physical reality and device mathematical models for analyzing it, predicting future behavior and hopefully controlling it. Logic is just a way to organize thinking and infere from what has been demonstrated, or proven otherwise, to what holds as a physical law.
People very often device theories based on premises that cannot be proved. The results of these theories may sometimes come close to reality but the basic syllogism may be wrong in the first place. In that respect and use, logic has nothing to do with physical reality. It does when its use and conclusions are in line with reality. From assumptions to conclusions.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Human knowledge and cognition is not in any way limited to using only abstract logic or mathematical models of reality.
The use of logic and complex mathermatical concepts is the language of a scientific elite, who is practicing physical theories far away from daily reality, and most of the time for no practical purpose whatsoever.
For most lay people, the non-scientifical interested public who have to pay their tax money for this scientific eclicism, this is not very comprehensible. Their speculative theoretical models, which can portray about anything, and even the most absurd things come into the picture, don't have much meaning, and do not realy contribute much to human understanding and perhaps invoke more confusion.
From our very material origin of our mind, it is understandable that, although there is no limit as to applications of scientific knowledge, in the sense of being able to live as a human and enhance the human society with the products of practical science, there will never be an all encompassing knowledge about everything in reality, so the absolute truth will never be available for humans, but there is no limit on finding relative truth.
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21 years 11 months ago #4281
by makis
Replied by makis on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Human knowledge and cognition is not in any way limited to using only abstract logic or mathematical models of reality.
The use of logic and complex mathermatical concepts is the language of a scientific elite, who is practicing physical theories far away from daily reality, and most of the time for no practical purpose whatsoever
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Well said and I feel that with your conclusion this topic is closed, unless someone else has anything to say in addition. At the end of the day, through our disagreements we come to agree on something that is actually common sense. I hope that mathematical formalism will be displaced in favor of other methods, such as common sense, experimentation and demonstration. Surely it has its place in reality but it is not what rules it.
Human knowledge and cognition is not in any way limited to using only abstract logic or mathematical models of reality.
The use of logic and complex mathermatical concepts is the language of a scientific elite, who is practicing physical theories far away from daily reality, and most of the time for no practical purpose whatsoever
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Well said and I feel that with your conclusion this topic is closed, unless someone else has anything to say in addition. At the end of the day, through our disagreements we come to agree on something that is actually common sense. I hope that mathematical formalism will be displaced in favor of other methods, such as common sense, experimentation and demonstration. Surely it has its place in reality but it is not what rules it.
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