Infinite Space and Time...How?

Tom,


Above you said:
"I don't understand your puzzlement. Can you imagine an end to space with nothing beyond? Without playing word games, of course. -|Tom|-"


My answer is "Yes". You view dimension as a function of time, wherein over vast ranges it dissapate through self-interaction. As time-space dimenishes the universe curls in on itself forming the end of existance.

Who can imagine something beyond where there is time or dimension? It isn't an egg with a shell where there is an outside, there simply is no physical link beyond the collapse of time and space.

That however, doesn't mean there isn't something beyond. In otherwords the universe may very easily be viewed as a bubble in a boiling pot of water, (A universe linked to the Chiral Condensate which is the creation) so that what is beyond is more of the same but in another universe.

This bubble universe can have "Quantitative" and "Qualitative" Domain limits. The dimensional boundry would be quantitative and v=c is qualitative. Exceed those limits and you continue to exist but in another physical universe.

In that view the universe is finite but creation may or may not be viewed as infinite.


Mac

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As time-space diminishes the universe curls in on itself forming the end of existance.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

This and your other comments remind me of a quote that seems appropriate here: "Physics is about everything one can see, hear or think about in the whole world. Mathematics is about everything!"

I have defined dimensions as the measures of space, time, and scale. As such, they cannot "curl in on themselves" as they can in math because I've defined them as straight. If one of my measurement standards were curved in the slightest, I would demand a straight replacement, formed by stretching a taut rope between two points on the curved standard.

Physics is a very different animal than mathematics. Physics is constrained to reality, which means the five and only five dimensions that are presently necessary and sufficient to describe all of reality.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Who can imagine something beyond where there is time or dimension? That however, doesn't mean there isn't something beyond. In otherwords the universe may very easily be viewed as a bubble in a boiling pot of water, (A universe linked to the Chiral Condensate which is the creation) so that what is beyond is more of the same but in another universe.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

My definition of "universe" is always "everything that exists". In this physical reality with these commonsense definitions, there can be no such thing as "other universes" by definition.

We must make a decision, whether we are going to stimulate our imaginations (that is usually enjoyable), or whether we are on a quest for knowledge about reality and nature's truth. If the latter, our imagination has no role to play. We must sit back and passively, dispassionately, observe what nature reveals about herself. Pushing nature toward our preferences seems only to lead to dead ends, of which many exist in modern science.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>creation may or may not be viewed as infinite.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Another principle of physics is that nothing can ever go out of existence. It can only disintegrate into parts we call matter and energy, particles and waves, only to reassemble someday into something else. It is complemented by its counterpart, that nothing can ever come into existence. That violates the "no creation <i>ex nihilo</i>" principle, you can't get something from nothing. If we start allowing miracles into physics, then we might as well have never started exploring in the first place because "God made it that way" is the answer to every question. Physics obliges us to dig deeper and try harder to understand reality than the cop-out that miracles always are.

I respect your views. But I sure can't agree with them. -|Tom|-

Tom,

Fair enough response and I respect your view as well but we have different perspectives on this. YOu did ask "Can anyone imagine" and I do.

We may never be able to prove things either way. Each to their own but I don't allow miracles or God (as normally considered) in my view that issue to me is not only unprovable but wholly irrational.

How does MM reconcile the accelerating expansion of the universe with infinity? I am of the impression your answer is that the physical universe we see (all matter) is expanding into infinite dimension (space). But considering space having the Chiral Condensate (or do you) then your space is not empty but filled super solid but in another form.


Mac

If it ain't infinite it would collapse in a small point under the effect of pushing gravitons and become a black-hole singularity. If it were infinite for real then infinite energy is needed to power gravitons and must come from some place, an act of God it seems to be.

It like a paradox model not different from any other model of the universe. They're all paradox models. If they weren't no one would be talking about them.

Time to fix some cars.

mechanic,

If its finite there are no gravitons pushing in and fewer at the perpherial regions to push in, that is way the universe is expanding.

More gravitons from the central region of a finite volume. Infinite space and infinite gravitons would sooner collapse the universe than a finite universe.


Mac

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Mac]: How does MM reconcile the accelerating expansion of the universe with infinity? I am of the impression your answer is that the physical universe we see (all matter) is expanding into infinite dimension (space).<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

No, in MM, the universe is not even expanding, let alone accelerating. Redshift is caused by light waves losing energy to gravitons by friction. -|Tom|-