Broken Circle

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To state that the Universe has existed forever (Infinite time) simply would mean time would now be stopped and not continuing on. You can not add to infinity, since we currently exist and enjoy continued accumulation of time it seems most obvious that its existance cannot be viewed as infinite for then there could be no future time.
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Not so. Pick any point on the infinite number line and you can always add one more. In fact, you could add infinity. This situation was discussed by David Hilbert and is called Hilbert's Hotel. Hilbert has a hotel with an infinite number of rooms, he lodges an infinite number of guests but one more comes along. Where does he put him? He has room because inf+1=inf. You have made the erronious assumption that because infinite time lies behind you that you therefore are at the "end" of time. But you can never be at the end (or beginning) of a continuum, you can only compare yourself with a finite section like individual integers on a number line. There are infinite numbers less than 3 but that does not mean you cannot therefore progress to 4.

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Simply put "Infinity" is not a useful term to associate with anythng in reality.
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It is unmeasurable but not useless if the universe is in fact infinite. No observation has shown the universe to have finite limit. Occam's razor would therefore suggest that infinite extent is a reasonable conclusion.

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The infiniticians would propose here that we are living now in a larger infinite set, and each moment that passes, a larger infinite set is created. Larger infinite sets- if that is not an oxymoron... and yet, the mathematicians truly believe that the infinite set of real numbers is larger than the infinite set of integers. Different cardinality my ass.
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Don't knock it unless you have a mathematical disproof. Cardinality is well accepted and mathematicians do in fact accept that the cardinality of real numbers is higher than that of integers. There are indeed larger infinite sets - an infinite heirarchy of them with no limits in sight.

I'd like to know what the psychological block to infinity is with people here, do you like the notion of everything ceasing to exist as though it never was or what? It seems to really bug some people and I don't get why.

Jeremy,

Patrick stole my same point so ditto that.

he lodges an infinite number of guests but one more comes along. Where does he put him? He has room because inf+1=inf. [unquote]

Your math is not incorrect. Your assumption is and that is that if you have something infinite that (1) can be added. Infinite by definition is ALL THERE IS. There cannot be one more to add or you were not at infinity in the first instance.

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The infiniticians would propose here that we are living now in a larger infinite set, and each moment that passes, a larger infinite set is created. Larger infinite sets- if that is not an oxymoron... and yet, the mathematicians truly believe that the infinite set of real numbers is larger than the infinite set of integers. Different cardinality my ass.
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Don't knock it unless you have a mathematical disproof. Cardinality is well accepted and mathematicians do in fact accept that the cardinality of real numbers is higher than that of integers. There are indeed larger infinite sets - an infinite heirarchy of them with no limits in sight.

I'd like to know what the psychological block to infinity is with people here, do you like the notion of everything ceasing to exist as though it never was or what? It seems to really bug some people and I don't get why.


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Hi,

Sorry I got carried away there. Of course I did not mean all mathematicians. I really don't think I have any psychological block about infinity. I have no problem with the never-ending mathematical operations (+, -, /, *) on finite numbers. It is the mathematical operations on infinity that I think is an oxymoron. Infinity can never be reached and by definition is unbounded so how can you ever add to or subtract from it?

Even in calculus, where the concept of infinity is needed for the limiting process, they mostly speak of "approaching" infinity. Infinity is never actually reached. It just seems very common sense to disagree with the idea of adding subtracting and doing any other math operation to something that is by definition, unlimited. And it doesn't make sense to the average person, I don't think, that you can have something larger than something that is already the largest possible. That is self-contradictory.

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>(1234567890)Eternal means infinite time. If it means without time then yesterday is just like today is just like tommorrow. There would be no change, no motion, nothing.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
If your existence consist only of "energy" and "energy" is "eternal" then how long will you live? How much time has passed? Did anything change? E---->E


Patrick<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
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That's the point- adding to infinity makes no sense. If you invoke eternity, which is an infinity, you are using a concept that makes
no sense. And if you agree that adding to infinity is self-contradictory (and it appears that you do), then you cannot claim eternal existence for your "energy".

Well, at least, you would have to give us a different model for infinity.

123...,

Don't knock it unless you have a mathematical disproof. Cardinality is well accepted and mathematicians do in fact accept that the cardinality of real numbers is higher than that of integers. There are indeed larger infinite sets - an infinite heirarchy of them with no limits in sight.[unquote]


Like I have said it is convieneint to calim "Math lacks intelligence in one case then invoke mathematical conclusion in another. Circular logic is the only thing holding this house up.