- Thank you received: 0
Electrons
- Larry Burford
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Platinum Member
Less
More
10 years 2 months ago #22709
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
<b>[Jim] "... what rules are in effect to direct all that traffic?"</b>
The rules come from the models. Each model proposes a set of rules that *attempt* to explain and/or describe what is happening down there. Models that do not make any predictions are generally not useful and generally not talked about much, even if they are able to describe or explain a lot of currently know phenomena.
String theory seems to be an exception to this rule. It does a decent job of explaining things we already know but so far has zero experimental support or rejection. And yet it gets talked about a lot. I guess it is just so sexy that people want to talk about it.
Models that do make predictions often lead to experiments to test the predictions. If the prediction is confirmed the model gets talked about. If not it doesn't. After a failed experiment it is sometimes possible to adjust the model and try again.
The orbiting electron model has been adjusted over the decades and has an impressive list of confirmed predictions. But as you pointed out earlier it does not explain everything as well as we would like.
I'm not sure if there are any models (theories) that are without at least one or two of these "dangs".
***
<b>[Jim] "... models are useful although way too often misused to promote private or public interests having more to due with economics than science.</b>
Yes they are. Tools themselves are neither good nor bad. But they can be used to do good and they can be used to do bad. And that gets us into politics. Those who would misuse the tools of science are almost always in cahoots with a corrupt politician. There are usually plenty of innocent dupes hanging around as well.
Crony capitalism and crony socialism are the currently dominant models of the (non-technical) world and focus on politics and government. Control and feedback systems that are built on these models are used by the less capable to basically steal from the more capable.
Market socialism and market capitalism are also models of the world, less well known and less used, that focus on economics and ethics. Where and when they have been used they work quite well. But they do not currently have the power to prevent those-who-would-control-others from slowly sneaking around and stealing power.
It is a flaw that has to be recognized and fixed before mankind can "move to the next plane" so to speak.
***
Some rich people literally did get that way by stealing from the poor. We call them politicians and their cronies. Burglars and robbers tend to steal from the middle class.
Other rich people got that way by engaging in fair and honest exchanges and/or by literally creating wealth. We call them inventors and entrepreneurs and small business men.<ul>Remember the legend of Robin Hood?
The Sheriff of Nottingham (a politician) and his cronies ran around the country taking what ever they wanted from the farmers and merchants (small businessmen) because they could.
(They are the crony socialists and the crony capitalists of their day.)
Robin (labeled a bandit but actually a hero) stole back from the Bad Guys (politicians and cronies) and returned the money to it's right full owners (the inventors-and-builders/farmers-and-merchants that had actually created the wealth in the first place).
(They are the market socialists and the market capitalists of their day.)</ul>
And of course if we are going to continue in this direction I need to move it to Big Science Big Government.
EDIT
<font color="pink">
This last section has been copied to the "Model Abuse" thread in the Big Science Big Government forum .
To continue discussing these topics, do so there.
To continue discussing electron model related topics, post here.</font id="pink">
The rules come from the models. Each model proposes a set of rules that *attempt* to explain and/or describe what is happening down there. Models that do not make any predictions are generally not useful and generally not talked about much, even if they are able to describe or explain a lot of currently know phenomena.
String theory seems to be an exception to this rule. It does a decent job of explaining things we already know but so far has zero experimental support or rejection. And yet it gets talked about a lot. I guess it is just so sexy that people want to talk about it.
Models that do make predictions often lead to experiments to test the predictions. If the prediction is confirmed the model gets talked about. If not it doesn't. After a failed experiment it is sometimes possible to adjust the model and try again.
The orbiting electron model has been adjusted over the decades and has an impressive list of confirmed predictions. But as you pointed out earlier it does not explain everything as well as we would like.
I'm not sure if there are any models (theories) that are without at least one or two of these "dangs".
***
<b>[Jim] "... models are useful although way too often misused to promote private or public interests having more to due with economics than science.</b>
Yes they are. Tools themselves are neither good nor bad. But they can be used to do good and they can be used to do bad. And that gets us into politics. Those who would misuse the tools of science are almost always in cahoots with a corrupt politician. There are usually plenty of innocent dupes hanging around as well.
Crony capitalism and crony socialism are the currently dominant models of the (non-technical) world and focus on politics and government. Control and feedback systems that are built on these models are used by the less capable to basically steal from the more capable.
Market socialism and market capitalism are also models of the world, less well known and less used, that focus on economics and ethics. Where and when they have been used they work quite well. But they do not currently have the power to prevent those-who-would-control-others from slowly sneaking around and stealing power.
It is a flaw that has to be recognized and fixed before mankind can "move to the next plane" so to speak.
***
Some rich people literally did get that way by stealing from the poor. We call them politicians and their cronies. Burglars and robbers tend to steal from the middle class.
Other rich people got that way by engaging in fair and honest exchanges and/or by literally creating wealth. We call them inventors and entrepreneurs and small business men.<ul>Remember the legend of Robin Hood?
The Sheriff of Nottingham (a politician) and his cronies ran around the country taking what ever they wanted from the farmers and merchants (small businessmen) because they could.
(They are the crony socialists and the crony capitalists of their day.)
Robin (labeled a bandit but actually a hero) stole back from the Bad Guys (politicians and cronies) and returned the money to it's right full owners (the inventors-and-builders/farmers-and-merchants that had actually created the wealth in the first place).
(They are the market socialists and the market capitalists of their day.)</ul>
And of course if we are going to continue in this direction I need to move it to Big Science Big Government.
EDIT
<font color="pink">
This last section has been copied to the "Model Abuse" thread in the Big Science Big Government forum .
To continue discussing these topics, do so there.
To continue discussing electron model related topics, post here.</font id="pink">
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Solar Patroller
- Offline
- Senior Member
Less
More
- Thank you received: 0
10 years 2 months ago #22549
by Solar Patroller
Replied by Solar Patroller on topic Reply from
Used to be that some (many?) thought atoms were miniature solar systems, which generated sci-fi stories like the classic novel The Girl in the Golden Atom by Ray Cummings from '23.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Time to create page: 0.222 seconds