Is the MM nihilistic?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Those are not things I have said. -|Tom|-

Well I must confess that I am having a devil of a time finding the thread where there was a comment made relevant to what I was talking about. It occured in one of the infinity argument threads but when I look back in some of the older threads they don't all seem to be there. Since I could spend forever trying to find the particular spot we will forget all that. I thought (perhaps wrongly) that in another thread there was one point where you had suggested that mankind's existence or advancement was limited, i.e. that we could not exist or advance indefinitely. Is this true? Does the MM impose some kind of limitation on our advancement or survival?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Jeremy]: when I look back in some of the older threads they don't all seem to be there.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

One of our younger participants left unhappy and deleted his messages from that thread. Perhaps the phrases you recall were in one of those deleted messages.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I thought (perhaps wrongly) that in another thread there was one point where you had suggested that mankind's existence or advancement was limited, i.e. that we could not exist or advance indefinitely. Is this true? Does the MM impose some kind of limitation on our advancement or survival?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Not directly, so I can only speculate about what you read that gave you that impression. In an unrelated context, I have provided considerable evidence for the exploded planet hypothesis, which appears to be a natural end state for planets. So Earth will not continue forever, nor will our Sun. And even if we achieve interstellar travel, large areas of galaxies are disrupted by supernova explosions, and even whole galaxies appear to have finite lifetimes. Probably, everything does.

I also said that, in MM, all forms eventually perish, although the substance from which they are made is eternal. Also, given an infinitely old universe, if it were possible for one species to grow and spread indefinitely far, it would already have happened. (And perhaps we are a part of that. There are indications to suggest the theory that humans evolved elsewhere to an advanced state and transferred to Earth 3.2 million years ago, losing their technology in the process. It is difficult to get a long-term perspective on ourselves because of our limited individual lifetimes.)

Does either of those lines of thought trigger any further recollections? I can't think of anything "gloomy" I said because my outlook is generally optimistic. Nor can I think of any specific "wall" that would limit our evolution. But whatever will happen to humanity, things just like it have happened over and over in the infinitely old universe. Details change, but when taking large-enough samples, all times, places and scales have many fundamental similarities. -|Tom|-

I did not mean to imply that you were truly gloomy. Sometimes playfullness doesn't translate well into print and perhaps I just fell flat on my face. OOps.

Some possibilities occur to me.
1. What if our super race limited it's population growth and just kept moving around to fresh areas of the universe as depleted areas pooped out?
2. Given the technological advancement of the last hundred years how can we even begin to imagine the capabilities of a culture a million or more years old? Quite metaphysical here but suppose our advanced culture is not even material any more? Their presence could be here but beyond our ability to perceive it. Do microbes notice people walking around near them?
3. To use a numerical analogy the MM does the equivalent of mapping a material particle to every integer on the number line. The universe is then an aleph-0 system. But what if the universe is even stranger than that and actually maps to an aleph-1 or higher system? In other words, could it map to the equivalent of the irrational or even transcendental numbers? In such a higher aleph system couldn't an infinite civilization exist with remaining infinite resources at it's disposal? In fact, couldn't an infinite number of such civilizations exist?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Jeremy]: 1. What if our super race limited it's population growth and just kept moving around to fresh areas of the universe as depleted areas pooped out?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That would require moving out fast enough to avoid extinction by all possible cataclysms at all scales. That might not be possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>2. Given the technological advancement of the last hundred years how can we even begin to imagine the capabilities of a culture a million or more years old? Quite metaphysical here but suppose our advanced culture is not even material any more? Their presence could be here but beyond our ability to perceive it. Do microbes notice people walking around near them?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

In MM, everything is "material", even if we cannot detect it. Don't microbes die anyway in a nuclear explosion, even though it is too big for them to see or even comprehend?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>3. To use a numerical analogy the MM does the equivalent of mapping a material particle to every integer on the number line. The universe is then an aleph-0 system. But what if the universe is even stranger than that and actually maps to an aleph-1 or higher system? In other words, could it map to the equivalent of the irrational or even transcendental numbers? In such a higher aleph system couldn't an infinite civilization exist with remaining infinite resources at it's disposal? In fact, couldn't an infinite number of such civilizations exist?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

What if pigs could fly? In MM, the universe is an aleph-null system, and the "universe" is defined as "everything that exists". Math has lots of concepts that are beyond physical possibility. -|Tom|-