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On the "Meaning of the "Speed of Gravity""
- AgoraBasta
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22 years 1 month ago #2987
by AgoraBasta
Replied by AgoraBasta on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
There is an apparent circularity here. I believe the whole institution is based on tautological, circular arguments based on hypothetical (unicorn) entities.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
The only circularity I see here, is there in your own reasoning. The forces are quite real in static configurations as well, like the force you exert on your stool, or reaction to static deformation...
There is an apparent circularity here. I believe the whole institution is based on tautological, circular arguments based on hypothetical (unicorn) entities.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
The only circularity I see here, is there in your own reasoning. The forces are quite real in static configurations as well, like the force you exert on your stool, or reaction to static deformation...
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22 years 1 month ago #3416
by makis
Replied by makis on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In the Meta Model, scale is infinite (as deduced from first principles and reasoning from Zeno's paradoxes, not assumed). <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
The paradox of Achilles and the tortoise (Zeno's paradox), deals with problems that involve the infinite and infinitesimals, as the Galileo's paradox, Berkeley's paradox, Dirac's paradox, etc.
Of course, we kown that using sequense limits, Achilles catches up with the tortoise. Simply a problem of irrelevant parameterization.
The question here is the following: Do abstract mathmetical forms involving the infinite are a part in the real world? If you say yes, you belong to the Platonist camp. And here is the paradox: Acceptance of the infinite implies existense of a higher cause. As a result, anything you do or model will be a paradox itself. Seems like a desperate task going that way.
In the Meta Model, scale is infinite (as deduced from first principles and reasoning from Zeno's paradoxes, not assumed). <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
The paradox of Achilles and the tortoise (Zeno's paradox), deals with problems that involve the infinite and infinitesimals, as the Galileo's paradox, Berkeley's paradox, Dirac's paradox, etc.
Of course, we kown that using sequense limits, Achilles catches up with the tortoise. Simply a problem of irrelevant parameterization.
The question here is the following: Do abstract mathmetical forms involving the infinite are a part in the real world? If you say yes, you belong to the Platonist camp. And here is the paradox: Acceptance of the infinite implies existense of a higher cause. As a result, anything you do or model will be a paradox itself. Seems like a desperate task going that way.
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22 years 1 month ago #2988
by makis
Replied by makis on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
[The only circularity I see here, is there in your own reasoning. The forces are quite real in static configurations as well, like the force you exert on your stool, or reaction to static deformation...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
It is very basic in Physics the distinction between "real" and "pseudo forces". I quote the following from thelink below:
www.gravitational-engineering.com/gravit...as_dynamic_geome.htm
<i>
"One very important feature of pseudo forces is that they are always proportional to the masses; the same is true of gravity. The possibility exists, therefore, that gravity itself is a pseudo force. Is it not possible that perhaps gravitation is due simply to the fact that we do not have the right coordinate system?" Richard Feynman.
</i>
[The only circularity I see here, is there in your own reasoning. The forces are quite real in static configurations as well, like the force you exert on your stool, or reaction to static deformation...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
It is very basic in Physics the distinction between "real" and "pseudo forces". I quote the following from thelink below:
www.gravitational-engineering.com/gravit...as_dynamic_geome.htm
<i>
"One very important feature of pseudo forces is that they are always proportional to the masses; the same is true of gravity. The possibility exists, therefore, that gravity itself is a pseudo force. Is it not possible that perhaps gravitation is due simply to the fact that we do not have the right coordinate system?" Richard Feynman.
</i>
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22 years 1 month ago #3175
by AgoraBasta
Replied by AgoraBasta on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
It is very basic in Physics the distinction between "real" and "pseudo forces".
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
In fact, you refer to Equivalence Principle; be it weak, medium or strong. Either way, it can't stand an experimental verification being put to scrupulous testing. Thus knowledge of "pseudo-forces" is pseudo-knowledge, i.e. no more that a limited logical induction.
It is very basic in Physics the distinction between "real" and "pseudo forces".
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
In fact, you refer to Equivalence Principle; be it weak, medium or strong. Either way, it can't stand an experimental verification being put to scrupulous testing. Thus knowledge of "pseudo-forces" is pseudo-knowledge, i.e. no more that a limited logical induction.
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22 years 1 month ago #3244
by Samizdat
Replied by Samizdat on topic Reply from Frederick Wilson
<i>
"One very important feature of pseudo forces is that they are always proportional to the masses; the same is true of gravity. The possibility exists, therefore, that gravity itself is a pseudo force. Is it not possible that perhaps gravitation is due simply to the fact that we do not have the right coordinate system?" Richard Feynman.
</i>
Let's keep our eyes on the prize here: while Feynman's question may be valid and useful, it is one which might easily absorb many lifetimes of study to determine. We already *have* experimental evidence of electromagnetic FTL phenomena. We should focus our efforts on translating this feature of observability (the competence of those who try to reproduce results is another matter) electromagnetism possesses, to gravitational force. As a first step towards achieving this, I propose setting up an experiment which would seek to locate pulars (I don't necessarily limit the proposed search to pulsars, though they may prove useful in timing or clocking events) in FTL space, as opposed to where we observe them to be with optical and radio telescopy. To target the actual source, much as the Native American of old, with his fishing spear, targeted the actual game fish rather than its water-slowed and shifted image. This means, of course, that for a pulsar x light-years away we would have to calculate what its position will be x years hence, so that with a high-gain tunable FTL receiver we ought to be able to aim for and locate the real-time FTL signature of the pulsar, in that calculated region of the galactic plane where we project a given pulsar to be in FTL space, as opposed to where we "observe" it to be through the lens of c. Further, there may be some sort of "wake" effect we should seek, containing successive shock waves, or optical (as opposed to sonic) booms, as FTL energy roars out in front of photonic, and which may make the process of locating the source, i.e., the pulsar, simpler.
(Note that I misspelled "pulsar" only once. Doubtless a quantum effect - Ed.)
"One very important feature of pseudo forces is that they are always proportional to the masses; the same is true of gravity. The possibility exists, therefore, that gravity itself is a pseudo force. Is it not possible that perhaps gravitation is due simply to the fact that we do not have the right coordinate system?" Richard Feynman.
</i>
Let's keep our eyes on the prize here: while Feynman's question may be valid and useful, it is one which might easily absorb many lifetimes of study to determine. We already *have* experimental evidence of electromagnetic FTL phenomena. We should focus our efforts on translating this feature of observability (the competence of those who try to reproduce results is another matter) electromagnetism possesses, to gravitational force. As a first step towards achieving this, I propose setting up an experiment which would seek to locate pulars (I don't necessarily limit the proposed search to pulsars, though they may prove useful in timing or clocking events) in FTL space, as opposed to where we observe them to be with optical and radio telescopy. To target the actual source, much as the Native American of old, with his fishing spear, targeted the actual game fish rather than its water-slowed and shifted image. This means, of course, that for a pulsar x light-years away we would have to calculate what its position will be x years hence, so that with a high-gain tunable FTL receiver we ought to be able to aim for and locate the real-time FTL signature of the pulsar, in that calculated region of the galactic plane where we project a given pulsar to be in FTL space, as opposed to where we "observe" it to be through the lens of c. Further, there may be some sort of "wake" effect we should seek, containing successive shock waves, or optical (as opposed to sonic) booms, as FTL energy roars out in front of photonic, and which may make the process of locating the source, i.e., the pulsar, simpler.
(Note that I misspelled "pulsar" only once. Doubtless a quantum effect - Ed.)
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22 years 4 weeks ago #3304
by Jayel
Replied by Jayel on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<i>
"One very important feature of pseudo forces is that they are always proportional to the masses; the same is true of gravity. The possibility exists, therefore, that gravity itself is a pseudo force. Is it not possible that perhaps gravitation is due simply to the fact that we do not have the right coordinate system?" Richard Feynman.
</i>
Let's keep our eyes on the prize here: while Feynman's question may be valid and useful, it is one which might easily absorb many lifetimes of study to determine. We already *have* experimental evidence of electromagnetic FTL phenomena. We should focus our efforts on translating this feature of observability (the competence of those who try to reproduce results is another matter) electromagnetism possesses, to gravitational force. As a first step towards achieving this, I propose setting up an experiment which would seek to locate binary pulars in FTL space, as opposed to where we observe them to be with optical and radio telescopy. To target the actual source, much as the Native American of old, with his fishing spear, targeted the actual game fish rather than its water-slowed and shifted image. With a high-gain tunable FTL receiver we ought to be able to locate the real-time FTL signatures of binary pulsars. My more ambitious suggestion for building upon (my projection of) success in this first step, with an experiment translating observability to gravitational phenomena, I reserve, for now.
(Note that I misspelled "pulsar" only once. Doubtless a quantum effect - Ed.)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
<i>
"One very important feature of pseudo forces is that they are always proportional to the masses; the same is true of gravity. The possibility exists, therefore, that gravity itself is a pseudo force. Is it not possible that perhaps gravitation is due simply to the fact that we do not have the right coordinate system?" Richard Feynman.
</i>
Let's keep our eyes on the prize here: while Feynman's question may be valid and useful, it is one which might easily absorb many lifetimes of study to determine. We already *have* experimental evidence of electromagnetic FTL phenomena. We should focus our efforts on translating this feature of observability (the competence of those who try to reproduce results is another matter) electromagnetism possesses, to gravitational force. As a first step towards achieving this, I propose setting up an experiment which would seek to locate binary pulars in FTL space, as opposed to where we observe them to be with optical and radio telescopy. To target the actual source, much as the Native American of old, with his fishing spear, targeted the actual game fish rather than its water-slowed and shifted image. With a high-gain tunable FTL receiver we ought to be able to locate the real-time FTL signatures of binary pulsars. My more ambitious suggestion for building upon (my projection of) success in this first step, with an experiment translating observability to gravitational phenomena, I reserve, for now.
(Note that I misspelled "pulsar" only once. Doubtless a quantum effect - Ed.)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
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