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Tom - Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter question
18 years 7 months ago #10454
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br />No, <i>WE</i> can always reduce the resolution.
BTW, if artificial, the most likely viewing distance for surface art would be that of an orbiting space station. -|Tom|-
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Ok, that's interesting. Is that really equivalent? I guess it does seem like it is. Instead of acquiring the data at some sub-sampled rate,the acquired data is sub-sampled. For some reason, I didn't think that was exactly the same thing, but maybe it is.
Regarding the viewing distance of an orbiting space station, why is that most likely? How do we know that?
rd
<br />No, <i>WE</i> can always reduce the resolution.
BTW, if artificial, the most likely viewing distance for surface art would be that of an orbiting space station. -|Tom|-
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Ok, that's interesting. Is that really equivalent? I guess it does seem like it is. Instead of acquiring the data at some sub-sampled rate,the acquired data is sub-sampled. For some reason, I didn't think that was exactly the same thing, but maybe it is.
Regarding the viewing distance of an orbiting space station, why is that most likely? How do we know that?
rd
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18 years 7 months ago #10455
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
<br />In such a situation the best you could do is observe the object from a distance that shows it as if it were a small number of merged dots. Much like your example feature that can be seen from 50 km altitude, but not more and not less.
I sure hope we don't find ourselves in such a situation ...
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I think it's a foregone conclusion that we find ourselves in such a situation...., but if Tom is right, we can factor it out after the fact.
rd
<br />In such a situation the best you could do is observe the object from a distance that shows it as if it were a small number of merged dots. Much like your example feature that can be seen from 50 km altitude, but not more and not less.
I sure hope we don't find ourselves in such a situation ...
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I think it's a foregone conclusion that we find ourselves in such a situation...., but if Tom is right, we can factor it out after the fact.
rd
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- neilderosa
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18 years 7 months ago #10456
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
Just to interject a few comments into this recent thread. I’m not ready to give up on the idea of acquiring more data and detail from higher resolution imaging. A few examples come to mind: The “eye” on the Cydonia Face seems to be made of different material (or different detailing on the same material) than the “textured skin” surrounding it. The Mesa itself, or at least the uppermost part of it where the facial features are located, may be made of some metal alloy or structural material, as opposed to a simple “sculpture carving” from the pre-existing stone of the mesa or butte. We need more information, more details in order to know. In another example, the Profile Image, and “Family” montage seems clearly to have detailed features which are not all that large, such as the apparent zigzag eyebrow on the “girl,” and the eye and facial outlining on both the “girl” and the “mother.” More imaging detail, and on the ground data is bound to increase our knowledge, one way or another. The same can be said for the well known “T“ feature. If it was indeed a mining operation or a symbol to be seen from space, more detail would add to our knowledge of it.
Another factor that should be considered is that not all of the hypothesized artifacts or “artworks” will pan out as such when all the evidence is in. Some may indeed prove to be natural formations which our imaginations carried us away into thinking were something else. One possibility: The “skullface” feature was a promising possible mosaic when viewed in the original lower resolution image AB108403 in which it was first discovered, but disappointing when the higher resolution image R1901775 failed to reveal the detail hoped for. In fact, in higher resolution image we seemed to have lost detail we shouldn’t have lost. For example the “mouth,” “eyes,” and “nose” just disappeared upon high resolution.
I think it is a mistake to extrapolate from this case that this is what we should always expect; to lose the big picture in the details, and “apologize in advance” so to speak, by explaining that this will always be so, at least at certain distances or degrees or resolution.
We still have no idea of what method of construction was used, or even if there was just one standard method. There could have been several methods, and some on the ground construction, perhaps extensive mining, material and personnel transport, (remember the “glassy tubes”), enclosed habitations, and so on. We also have no more than a working hypothesis as to where the images were intended to be viewed from; whether from “floating platforms” a few thousand feet high, an orbiting space station, or from the home planet through high powered telescopes, just to name a few possibilities.
There is still a lot to be learned.
Neil
Another factor that should be considered is that not all of the hypothesized artifacts or “artworks” will pan out as such when all the evidence is in. Some may indeed prove to be natural formations which our imaginations carried us away into thinking were something else. One possibility: The “skullface” feature was a promising possible mosaic when viewed in the original lower resolution image AB108403 in which it was first discovered, but disappointing when the higher resolution image R1901775 failed to reveal the detail hoped for. In fact, in higher resolution image we seemed to have lost detail we shouldn’t have lost. For example the “mouth,” “eyes,” and “nose” just disappeared upon high resolution.
I think it is a mistake to extrapolate from this case that this is what we should always expect; to lose the big picture in the details, and “apologize in advance” so to speak, by explaining that this will always be so, at least at certain distances or degrees or resolution.
We still have no idea of what method of construction was used, or even if there was just one standard method. There could have been several methods, and some on the ground construction, perhaps extensive mining, material and personnel transport, (remember the “glassy tubes”), enclosed habitations, and so on. We also have no more than a working hypothesis as to where the images were intended to be viewed from; whether from “floating platforms” a few thousand feet high, an orbiting space station, or from the home planet through high powered telescopes, just to name a few possibilities.
There is still a lot to be learned.
Neil
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18 years 7 months ago #10458
by jrich
Replied by jrich on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br />BTW, if artificial, the most likely viewing distance for surface art would be that of an orbiting space station. The MGS and MRO cameras are at a good approximation of that distance. -|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Tom, at the risk of lowering this discussion to an even greater level of absurdity by ignoring the glaring anthromorphisms at the heart of this debate and exploring only anthropomorphic assumptions in your reasoning above, aren't you assuming that whatever beings created the artifacts had similar visual acuity to modern humans?
JR
<br />BTW, if artificial, the most likely viewing distance for surface art would be that of an orbiting space station. The MGS and MRO cameras are at a good approximation of that distance. -|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Tom, at the risk of lowering this discussion to an even greater level of absurdity by ignoring the glaring anthromorphisms at the heart of this debate and exploring only anthropomorphic assumptions in your reasoning above, aren't you assuming that whatever beings created the artifacts had similar visual acuity to modern humans?
JR
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- neilderosa
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18 years 7 months ago #14968
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
jrich writes: "...exploring only anthropomorphic assumptions in your reasoning above, aren't you assuming that whatever beings created the artifacts had similar visual acuity to modern humans?"
These "anthropomorphic assumptions" are based on <i>mounting evidence </i>that these people of whom a number of artistic renderings of their faces have been preserved for us to see--<i>resemble us</i>, quite distinctly it seems. It is a working hypothesis to be sure, but if you have something better, I'd be interested in hearing it.
Neil
These "anthropomorphic assumptions" are based on <i>mounting evidence </i>that these people of whom a number of artistic renderings of their faces have been preserved for us to see--<i>resemble us</i>, quite distinctly it seems. It is a working hypothesis to be sure, but if you have something better, I'd be interested in hearing it.
Neil
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18 years 7 months ago #10461
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
Re: anthropomorphic assumptions again:
I forgot to mention the obvious; the kinds of things Tom has stressed many times. The images are large enough to be seen from long distances away (by technological beings like us with visual apparatus and technical enhancements). They are facing skyward. They were obviously meant to be seen from above. There are several possible scenarios about exactly how they were intended to be viewed. But the important thing is that they are there (and logically seem to be what they are). If all of this evidence is eventually verified, the ramifications shouild be enormous.
Neil
I forgot to mention the obvious; the kinds of things Tom has stressed many times. The images are large enough to be seen from long distances away (by technological beings like us with visual apparatus and technical enhancements). They are facing skyward. They were obviously meant to be seen from above. There are several possible scenarios about exactly how they were intended to be viewed. But the important thing is that they are there (and logically seem to be what they are). If all of this evidence is eventually verified, the ramifications shouild be enormous.
Neil
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