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- neilderosa
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18 years 6 months ago #10594
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
Some of the images you have posted may indeed represent artificial features on Mars--others may not. My suggestion is that you make your best logical and scientific argument for each of them, and let the readers decide. Also, future data will either confirm or falsify your hypothesis in each case.
This was our motivation, and is what we tried to do.
Neil
This was our motivation, and is what we tried to do.
Neil
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- Larry Burford
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18 years 6 months ago #17079
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
I took a quick look at some of the Mars Express pictures the other day. About a third of them seemed to have an image of some sort imbeded in them. A few of these images were ... high quality. Kind of like a double exposure.
Not easy to see at first, but once you see them they won't go away. I've repeated the links here for your convenience.
The home page of the ESA is at:
www.esa.int
The home page for the Mars Express orbiter is at:
www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/index.html
LB
Not easy to see at first, but once you see them they won't go away. I've repeated the links here for your convenience.
The home page of the ESA is at:
www.esa.int
The home page for the Mars Express orbiter is at:
www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/index.html
LB
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18 years 6 months ago #10595
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
In the interests of full disclosure, you should know that I also see images in the tile on my bathroom floor.
LB
LB
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18 years 6 months ago #17080
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
<br />In the interests of full disclosure, you should know that I also see images in the tile on my bathroom floor.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
When Neil first told my wife and I about the "Face" on Mars, and we looked at the images from the Viking, we were totally unconvinced. We live pretty close to Yosemite Valley, and we've gone there many times. One time after we heard about the famous Face, we were sitting in the valley looking at the walls near the famous Yosemie Waterfall. There was almost no direction you could look in where you DIDN'T see a face.
I'm sure most readers of this forum have by now learned a little about:
Pareidolia (from Greek para- amiss, faulty, wrong + eidolon, diminutive of eidos appearance, form) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (usually an image) being mistakenly perceived as recognizable. Common examples include images of animals or faces in clouds, seeing the man in the moon, and hearing messages on records played in reverse.
My wife and I took pareidolia as the given, the starting point if you will.
But saying there is such a thing as pareidolia does not mean that the images Emanuel is posting, or this image (borrowed from Wilkepedia):
{Image deleted temporarily} 160px-Pareidolia_3.jpg
Is the same thing as this image:
{Image deleted temporarily} M0305549pg_n_smooth_half.gif
That's the bottom line. There has been much good stuff written on the subject, by Tom and by JP Levasseur that explains how one differentiates between the two.
What really changed my mind, though, has to do with some other work I did with Neil on another feature on the Martian surface, plus the discovery that there were more faces in the area of the PI Girl. That's what turned me around. I posed a question to both Tom and jrich earlier in the thread: when you look at all the detail in that family scene, does the presence of the additional detail add to or distract from the artificiality hypothesis? Does it increase or decrease the odds that these images are real? If you believe JP's original PI image is artificial, does the addition of more images in the area increase your belief or detract from it? Can "Pareidolia" really be that elaborate?
rd
<br />In the interests of full disclosure, you should know that I also see images in the tile on my bathroom floor.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
When Neil first told my wife and I about the "Face" on Mars, and we looked at the images from the Viking, we were totally unconvinced. We live pretty close to Yosemite Valley, and we've gone there many times. One time after we heard about the famous Face, we were sitting in the valley looking at the walls near the famous Yosemie Waterfall. There was almost no direction you could look in where you DIDN'T see a face.
I'm sure most readers of this forum have by now learned a little about:
Pareidolia (from Greek para- amiss, faulty, wrong + eidolon, diminutive of eidos appearance, form) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (usually an image) being mistakenly perceived as recognizable. Common examples include images of animals or faces in clouds, seeing the man in the moon, and hearing messages on records played in reverse.
My wife and I took pareidolia as the given, the starting point if you will.
But saying there is such a thing as pareidolia does not mean that the images Emanuel is posting, or this image (borrowed from Wilkepedia):
{Image deleted temporarily} 160px-Pareidolia_3.jpg
Is the same thing as this image:
{Image deleted temporarily} M0305549pg_n_smooth_half.gif
That's the bottom line. There has been much good stuff written on the subject, by Tom and by JP Levasseur that explains how one differentiates between the two.
What really changed my mind, though, has to do with some other work I did with Neil on another feature on the Martian surface, plus the discovery that there were more faces in the area of the PI Girl. That's what turned me around. I posed a question to both Tom and jrich earlier in the thread: when you look at all the detail in that family scene, does the presence of the additional detail add to or distract from the artificiality hypothesis? Does it increase or decrease the odds that these images are real? If you believe JP's original PI image is artificial, does the addition of more images in the area increase your belief or detract from it? Can "Pareidolia" really be that elaborate?
rd
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18 years 6 months ago #10596
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rderosa</i>
If you believe JP's original PI image is artificial, does the addition of more images in the area increase your belief or detract from it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Let me rephrase that slightly.
If you've studied the original PI image, as JP did, and concluded that the extensive detail drastically put the odds in favor of artificiality, does the addition of more images in the area, of the same style and form, enhance or detract from your conclusion of artificiality?
rd
If you believe JP's original PI image is artificial, does the addition of more images in the area increase your belief or detract from it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Let me rephrase that slightly.
If you've studied the original PI image, as JP did, and concluded that the extensive detail drastically put the odds in favor of artificiality, does the addition of more images in the area, of the same style and form, enhance or detract from your conclusion of artificiality?
rd
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- tvanflandern
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18 years 6 months ago #17081
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rderosa</i>
<br />If you've ... concluded that the extensive detail drastically put the odds in favor of artificiality, does the addition of more images in the area, of the same style and form, enhance or detract from your conclusion of artificiality?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Back when all we had was the Viking images of the Face, SPSR listed eight tests for artificiality. These tests included such thigs as scanning the area with militray software programmed to find man-made objects hidden by natural camouflage, which makes the search objective and not subject to any "brain hard-wiring". The Cydonia Face, of course, gave a reading of "probably artificial" by the software.
Another of the eight tests was other artifacts in proximity, because a single artifact seems especially pointless, whereas a complex suggests purposefulness, even if we can't guess what that purpose might have been. So additional artifacts in the vicinity has been regarded from the outset as a pro-artifact finding; whereas isolation is somewhat anti-artifact.
I notice that these latest messages have once again blurred the distinction between the two different reasons we examine these images. Some of us are still looking for that first example of conclusive artificiality. Those people need not bother looking at any of these secondary images because most of these are not persuasive to anyone not already at least partially persuaded of artificiality elsewhere. And it is both natural and obvious for anyone unconvinced that anything on Mars is artificial to conclude that all these additional, lower-quality examples merely bring into question the standards of other viewers. So defending the artificiality of lower-quality features is pointless.
OTOH, for those who are persuaded by at least one of the major anomalies on Mars that at least one anomaly is artificial, that instantly changes the picture. Where there is one artifact, there are sure to be others. With one sure artifact, the burden of proof shifts. For that first artifact, very strong evidence is required. But given one artifact, the second and later examples do not require any special level of proof. The question for all anomalies after the first definite artifact is merely "Which appears more probably, an accident of nature or another artifact?" For a secondary anomaly, even a 51% to 49% split in the probability of artificial over natural origin is enough to seriously consider the anomaly -- NOT as another example supporting artificiality, but as another example of purpose or function, helping us piece together what all this means.
Those of you who haven't yet seen your first convincing artifact will need to forgive those of us who have, while we ponder the meaning and implications of all this. And the two groups will not successfully communicate, but will only aggravate one another, if they do not recognize which of the two reasons for examining Mars images the writer is involved with -- first proof of artificiality or later evidence of functionality. Many of the examples in this thread are in the latter category, but are being mistaken as in the former. -|Tom|-
<br />If you've ... concluded that the extensive detail drastically put the odds in favor of artificiality, does the addition of more images in the area, of the same style and form, enhance or detract from your conclusion of artificiality?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Back when all we had was the Viking images of the Face, SPSR listed eight tests for artificiality. These tests included such thigs as scanning the area with militray software programmed to find man-made objects hidden by natural camouflage, which makes the search objective and not subject to any "brain hard-wiring". The Cydonia Face, of course, gave a reading of "probably artificial" by the software.
Another of the eight tests was other artifacts in proximity, because a single artifact seems especially pointless, whereas a complex suggests purposefulness, even if we can't guess what that purpose might have been. So additional artifacts in the vicinity has been regarded from the outset as a pro-artifact finding; whereas isolation is somewhat anti-artifact.
I notice that these latest messages have once again blurred the distinction between the two different reasons we examine these images. Some of us are still looking for that first example of conclusive artificiality. Those people need not bother looking at any of these secondary images because most of these are not persuasive to anyone not already at least partially persuaded of artificiality elsewhere. And it is both natural and obvious for anyone unconvinced that anything on Mars is artificial to conclude that all these additional, lower-quality examples merely bring into question the standards of other viewers. So defending the artificiality of lower-quality features is pointless.
OTOH, for those who are persuaded by at least one of the major anomalies on Mars that at least one anomaly is artificial, that instantly changes the picture. Where there is one artifact, there are sure to be others. With one sure artifact, the burden of proof shifts. For that first artifact, very strong evidence is required. But given one artifact, the second and later examples do not require any special level of proof. The question for all anomalies after the first definite artifact is merely "Which appears more probably, an accident of nature or another artifact?" For a secondary anomaly, even a 51% to 49% split in the probability of artificial over natural origin is enough to seriously consider the anomaly -- NOT as another example supporting artificiality, but as another example of purpose or function, helping us piece together what all this means.
Those of you who haven't yet seen your first convincing artifact will need to forgive those of us who have, while we ponder the meaning and implications of all this. And the two groups will not successfully communicate, but will only aggravate one another, if they do not recognize which of the two reasons for examining Mars images the writer is involved with -- first proof of artificiality or later evidence of functionality. Many of the examples in this thread are in the latter category, but are being mistaken as in the former. -|Tom|-
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