Mathematical Obscurities in Special Relativity

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DAVID</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by 1234567890</i>
<br />
I don't think this is correct. Since you are referring to the speed of sound in the air outside, the moving detector of the soundwaves in the rear would detect the waves from the source earlier than the moving detector in the front (if the source is placed in the middle of the train). Since this would happen for each pulse generated by the source, the detector at the rear will detect more waves per time interval than the detector in the front. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">



The onset of the first pulse will be fast at the rear of the train, at a combined relative speed of 1,100 fps + 88 fps, so a rear observer will hear the tone first, when compared to a front observer (assuming the whistle is in the middle of the train). But that is just the onset, the beginning of the first pulse. This is part of the whole Doppler phenomenon.

But because the whistle is moving through the air, a single wave “cycle” will be “deposited” into the air over a longer than normal distance (than if the whistle were stationary in the air). Thus, the wavelength of the tone, to the rear of the whistle will be “stretched out”, i.e. longer.

But the rear observer will hear the wave as being the normal tone, since he is encountering the stretched out wave at 1,188 fps, instead of 1,100 fps.

If the whistle is in the middle of the train, the front observer would hear the normal tone of the whistle because he is hearing a contracted wavelength over a longer period of time, since that short wave is traveling toward him at a combined relative speed of 1,012 fps, which is 1,100 fps – 88 fps.

A stationary observer on the track at the front of the train will encounter the short wavelength at 1,100 fps, and a stationary observer on the track at the rear of the train will encounter the longer wavelength at 1,100 fps, so the front track observer will hear a higher tone than normal and the rear track observer will hear a lower tone than normal, while both moving train observers will hear the normal tone of the whistle, because one kind of Doppler effect cancels out the other kind of Doppler effect.

This is “classical” Doppler effect, not “relativistic” Doppler effect.


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No, I think the effect will be analogous to playing those vinyl records at 66 rpm and 16 rpm instead of the recommended 33 1/2 rpm.
The record does not change in size as the information etched on it travels to the needle(just like the medium remain effectively unocmpressed and unstretched as detected in the moving train), nevertheless the sound coming out sounds higher pitched when played fast and lower pitched when played slow because the information is reaching the needle at different speeds. There is a stretching and compressing of waves effect that is cancelled but a second one that is not.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DAVID</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by 1234567890</i>

Only if light speed is source dependent can physics be the same inside different inertial frames. And I really think this is the case because waitresses in cafes, servers inside train cabins
moving at 52 miles per hour, and stewardesses on a 747 flying at
534 miles per hour can pour a cup of coffee right into a cup without
spilling a drop so it can't be all that difficult for light to move with a velocity dependent of its source.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


The way Dr. Su’s theory works is that light speed is “source dependent” only while light is traveling near the surfaces of astronomical bodies. That is because the light speed is regulated by the local gravity field at the bodies, and that field is moving through space with the body and the speed of the light is not influenced by any other body’s gravity field, until the light begins to get out of a solar system and enter deep space. In the deep space, its speed is regulated by the combined fields of all the stars in that vicinity of space.

Another way to think of it is like this: Light while traveling inside one galaxy will have an average speed (relative to the center of that galaxy) of approximately “c”, because its local speed in the galaxy is being regulated by all the local fields of that local galaxy.

But, billions of years later, as the light enters a completely different galaxy, that new galaxy will regulate the local speed of light to an average of "c” while the light is traveling inside it.

So, if the two galaxies are moving apart rapidly, the local light speed is about “c” inside the galaxy in which the light is traveling. Once the light leaves that galaxy and enters the strong field areas of another galaxy, its local speed is regulated by the fields of the new galaxy through which it travels.

If the second galaxy is moving at the speed of light relative to the first galaxy, the light is moving (relative to the first galaxy) through the second galaxy at the speed of light in that second galaxy, plus the speed of that galaxy away from the first galaxy.

Or, think of it this way: Sound is regulate in air by the properties of the air. If a pocket of air is moving through space at 600 mph relative to another pocket of air (such as in an airplane in the sky as compared to a house on earth), then the speed of sound in the airplane is “c”, relative to that moving pocket of air. But, relative to the pocket of air that is in the house on earth, the speed of sound in the airplane is “c” + or – the speed of the airplane, depending on whether the airplane is moving toward or away from the house.

Once the sound leaves the airplane, its speed is no longer regulated by the air inside the airplane, but its regulated by the air outside the airplane.

This is very simple classical Doppler theory, and light must work in a similar way. But, the local light propagating medium seems to travel around with astronomical bodies, just as the pockets of air travel around within moving airplanes.

There is no “ether wind” at the surface of the earth, according to Dr. Su, because the “local ether” at the surface of the earth is the earth’s own local gravitational field, which travels through space with the earth, just as the earth’s own atmosphere travels through space with the earth.

If you run a flag up a flag pole, you will not see any evidence of an 18.6 mps “air wind” as the earth moves around the sun, because the local air is not sun-based, but it is earth based. The “local ether” is not sun-based or universe-based, but is earth-based.

If the waitress on a train was pouring coffee on the open deck of a flat car that has no walls or roof, the coffee would react to a 60 mph wind and would not flow straight down into the cup, but it would flow in a direction toward the end of the train and it would miss the cup. So “inertia” is not the only factor involved. “Fields” are involved, and in the case of the coffee and the wind, the air acts like a field through which the coffee, waitress, and cup are moving.



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes, this post reflects my thoughts exactly.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by 1234567890</i>
<br />

No, I think the effect will be analogous to playing those vinyl records at 66 rpm and 16 rpm instead of the recommended 33 1/2 rpm.
The record does not change in size as the information etched on it travels to the needle(just like the medium remain effectively unocmpressed and unstretched as detected in the moving train), nevertheless the sound coming out sounds higher pitched when played fast and lower pitched when played slow because the information is reaching the needle at different speeds. There is a stretching and compressing of waves effect that is cancelled but a second one that is not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


To understand the Doppler effects, you must consider when the record was recorded. If the recording device was running too fast, the wavelengths will be “stretched out” on the record. If you play the record at faster than normal speed, you will perceive the waves to not be stretched out on the record, even though they are stretched out, when compared to a record that is recorded at the normal speed of 33 rpm.

When the moving whistle is moving through the air, it deposits the sound wave into the air in a “stretched out” form. When the moving observer encounters those “stretched out” waves, he will encounter them at 1,100 fps + 88 fps, so he will perceive them as not being stretched out, even though they are stretched out in the air.

The same thing happens if you record the record at 33 rpm, but if you move the needle forward by additional rpms. That’s like the moving whistle while the whistle is depositing the waves into the stationary air. That stretches out the waves in the air. As the passenger moves through the air at the same speed as the whistle, he hears a normal pitch of the whistle, because he is hearing the stretched out waves over a shorter period time.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by 1234567890</i>
<br />

No, I think the effect will be analogous to playing those vinyl records at 66 rpm and 16 rpm instead of the recommended 33 1/2 rpm. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I worked with this stuff years ago with film sound tracks.

If you move a mag track to the left past a stationary recording tape head at 5 inches per second, you will have “normal” wavelengths recorded on the track, if 5 inches per second is the normal record speed.

But if you also move the recording tape head to the right at 5 inches per second, while the mag track is moving to the left at 5 inches per second, you will have stretched out wavelengths on the track.

If you have a sound reading head that is stationary with the table, and have the mag track pass over it at 5 inches per second, you will hear a low tone caused by the stretched out wavelengths, which are caused by the combined motion of the mag track to the left and the recording head to the right.

If you have a sound reading head that is moving to the right at 5 inches per second, the same speed as the moving recording tape head, while the mag track is moving to the left at 5 inches per second, you will hear a normal tone, even though the wavelengths are stretched out on the mag track.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DAVID</i>


To understand the Doppler effects, you must consider when the record was recorded. If the recording device was running too fast, the wavelengths will be “stretched out” on the record. If you play the record at faster than normal speed, you will perceive the waves to not be stretched out on the record, even though they are stretched out, when compared to a record that is recorded at the normal speed of 33 rpm.

When the moving whistle is moving through the air, it deposits the sound wave into the air in a “stretched out” form. When the moving observer encounters those “stretched out” waves, he will encounter them at 1,100 fps + 88 fps, so he will perceive them as not being stretched out, even though they are stretched out in the air.

The same thing happens if you record the record at 33 rpm, but if you move the needle forward by additional rpms. That’s like the moving whistle while the whistle is depositing the waves into the stationary air. That stretches out the waves in the air. As the passenger moves through the air at the same speed as the whistle, he hears a normal pitch of the whistle, because he is hearing the stretched out waves over a shorter period time.


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

This sounds suspiciously correct, but it's wrong. Since you stipulated that the soundwaves are traveling through the air outside
even in the moving train, they are being detected at c+v and c-v by the rear and front detectors in the moving train respectively. There are two effects the one you refer to is cancelled, a second one I was talking about is not. It becomes obvious if you set v = c, in which case the front detector never detects any soundwaves at all- now THAT's a REAL shift.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by 1234567890</i>
<br />

This sounds suspiciously correct, but it's wrong. Since you stipulated that the soundwaves are traveling through the air outside
even in the moving train, they are being detected at c+v and c-v by the rear and front detectors in the moving train respectively. There are two effects the one you refer to is cancelled, a second one I was talking about is not. It becomes obvious if you set v = c, in which case the front detector never detects any soundwaves at all- now THAT's a REAL shift.


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


I apologize. In one of my earlier posts I used “c” for the speed of sound. I didn’t not mean to imply it was the speed of light.

I should have used V for the speed of the sound and v for the speed of the train.

So, the rear moving observer on the moving train encounters the stretched out sound wave moving toward him at the additive speed of V + v rather than just V. So, he encounters the stretched out wave at 1,188 fps, instead of the normal speed of sound, which is about 1,100 fps.

This is the same as recording a normal sound at about 34 rpm on a phonograph record. When playing it back at 33 rpm, you will hear a slightly stretched out sound wave that has been physically recorded onto the record as being a little longer than normal. But if you adjust your playback speed up to 34 rpm, you will hear the stretched out wave as a normal tone, because even though it is stretched out, it is passing your needle at a higher speed.

This is a law of nature. This is not a “theory”. I apologize for using the letter c earlier for the speed of sound.