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Twin paradox
21 years 4 months ago #5993
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
I am not well enough trained to know the difference between LR&SR or GR so I simply assumed time was different in view of the fact that the two clocks were going in opposite directions. I was thinking of a speed more near C for both clocks. But this is not where I was hoping to be in this walk down a road. I wanted to get redshift in the plot. It seems to me redshift and time have a common bond in SR,LR,GR that is hiding in all the confusion. I don't see common bond clearly yet and so I ask dumb things hoping to get a clue. Haven't a clue yet.
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- riff-raff-alunas
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21 years 4 months ago #6233
by riff-raff-alunas
Replied by riff-raff-alunas on topic Reply from victoras nerkeliunas
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You have just put your finger on the "paradox" part of the twin's paradox. How indeed? Two answers are available.
(1) In Einstein's special relativity, each inertial frame has its own time. near the present; that receding parts of the other frame are experiencing time in the past; and that approaching parts of the other frame are now experiencing time in the first frame's future.
When this convoluted picture is worked out, it means that, because time is everywhere different depending on your frame and your speed relative to other frames, it is easily possible for two clocks with a relative speed to each determine that the other is ticking slower than itself. That is what SR is all about.
Part of what SR predicts -- namely that clocks in moving frames do appear to slow down -- has been verified beyond a reasonable doubt in numerous experiments, several of which are sketched in cartoon fashion in our presentation on "Gravitational force vs. gravitational potential" at < metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/gravity.asp >. However, fortunately, the SR interpretation is not the only one to make the same prediction.
(2) In Lorentzian relativity, Locally, that preferred frame is the "Earth-centered inertial" frame, a reference frame centered on the Earth that does not share the Earth's rotation.
So in LR, if both clocks move in different directions at the same speed relative to the ECI frame (for example, two satellites in the same orbit moving in opposite directions), then each of those two clocks will agree with the other about both time and clock rates.
I know this stuff can be confusing, and even experts disagree among themselves about how to explain things like the twin's paradox. But the essence of the two leading theories can be briefly summarized this way:
* In SR, relative motion alters time itself.
* In LR, motion relative to the local gravity field alters the rate of ticking of clocks, but nothing happens to "time". -|Tom|-
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
So, each twin is compartmentalized in 'their own time bubble' and
each particular 'time bubble' is regulated by the gravity in the
space they occupy and /or the velocity of the 'time bubble'?
Q: twin* travels to neutron star GRO J1655-40
cuts the engines and becomes 're-scaled'or synchronized to the'local'
Does twin* age in ECI (normal,standard)condition? at this remote site
..the atomic clocks are ticking alike, ergo the biological processes
are also in sync- so twin* and twin**(on earth) remain contemporary?
Until, of course twin* meets his demise from the energetic radiation
of the neutron star /or is assimilated by the massive gravity field.
s/riff-raff
enjoy the journey
(1) In Einstein's special relativity, each inertial frame has its own time. near the present; that receding parts of the other frame are experiencing time in the past; and that approaching parts of the other frame are now experiencing time in the first frame's future.
When this convoluted picture is worked out, it means that, because time is everywhere different depending on your frame and your speed relative to other frames, it is easily possible for two clocks with a relative speed to each determine that the other is ticking slower than itself. That is what SR is all about.
Part of what SR predicts -- namely that clocks in moving frames do appear to slow down -- has been verified beyond a reasonable doubt in numerous experiments, several of which are sketched in cartoon fashion in our presentation on "Gravitational force vs. gravitational potential" at < metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/gravity.asp >. However, fortunately, the SR interpretation is not the only one to make the same prediction.
(2) In Lorentzian relativity, Locally, that preferred frame is the "Earth-centered inertial" frame, a reference frame centered on the Earth that does not share the Earth's rotation.
So in LR, if both clocks move in different directions at the same speed relative to the ECI frame (for example, two satellites in the same orbit moving in opposite directions), then each of those two clocks will agree with the other about both time and clock rates.
I know this stuff can be confusing, and even experts disagree among themselves about how to explain things like the twin's paradox. But the essence of the two leading theories can be briefly summarized this way:
* In SR, relative motion alters time itself.
* In LR, motion relative to the local gravity field alters the rate of ticking of clocks, but nothing happens to "time". -|Tom|-
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
So, each twin is compartmentalized in 'their own time bubble' and
each particular 'time bubble' is regulated by the gravity in the
space they occupy and /or the velocity of the 'time bubble'?
Q: twin* travels to neutron star GRO J1655-40
cuts the engines and becomes 're-scaled'or synchronized to the'local'
Does twin* age in ECI (normal,standard)condition? at this remote site
..the atomic clocks are ticking alike, ergo the biological processes
are also in sync- so twin* and twin**(on earth) remain contemporary?
Until, of course twin* meets his demise from the energetic radiation
of the neutron star /or is assimilated by the massive gravity field.
s/riff-raff
enjoy the journey
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21 years 4 months ago #6234
by Jan
Replied by Jan on topic Reply from Jan Vink
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
[TVF]: In Einstein's special relativity, each inertial frame has its own time.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I have great difficulty absorbing this concept. Hopefully I am not the only one. Do we actually assign a region of space containing the inertial frame that has its own time? How large is this region? In case of the traveling twin, is it the size of the rocket and everything in it?
[TVF]: In Einstein's special relativity, each inertial frame has its own time.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I have great difficulty absorbing this concept. Hopefully I am not the only one. Do we actually assign a region of space containing the inertial frame that has its own time? How large is this region? In case of the traveling twin, is it the size of the rocket and everything in it?
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21 years 4 months ago #6368
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[rra]: So, each twin is compartmentalized in 'their own time bubble' and each particular 'time bubble' is regulated by the gravity in the space they occupy and /or the velocity of the 'time bubble'?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
No. In SR, "time" is a function of one's state of motion. Every observer perceives his/her own reference frame as at rest, and time in that frame as universal and normal. However, when peering into any other frame, time at different locations will be different.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Q: twin* travels to neutron star GRO J1655-40, cuts the engines and becomes 're-scaled'or synchronized to the'local'.
Does twin* age in ECI (normal,standard) condition?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
After rejoining the ECI frame, twin* ages at the same rate as twin**. However, an age difference has built up during the journey to the neutron star. If both live to the same biological age, twin** will die first because he/she is older. -|Tom|-
No. In SR, "time" is a function of one's state of motion. Every observer perceives his/her own reference frame as at rest, and time in that frame as universal and normal. However, when peering into any other frame, time at different locations will be different.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Q: twin* travels to neutron star GRO J1655-40, cuts the engines and becomes 're-scaled'or synchronized to the'local'.
Does twin* age in ECI (normal,standard) condition?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
After rejoining the ECI frame, twin* ages at the same rate as twin**. However, an age difference has built up during the journey to the neutron star. If both live to the same biological age, twin** will die first because he/she is older. -|Tom|-
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21 years 4 months ago #5995
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[Jan]: Do we actually assign a region of space containing the inertial frame that has its own time? How large is this region? In case of the traveling twin, is it the size of the rocket and everything in it?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Each observer's own reference frame is normal, synchronized, and universal. But to that observer, all other frames are internally de-synchronized, with local time depending on location. This is what I call "time slippage", and it is usually a much larger effect than that resulting from clock rates changing.
Of course, an observer in one of those de-synchronized frames sees just the reverse. Time for him/her is normal and universal, but is de-synchronized in the original observer's frame. -|Tom|-
Each observer's own reference frame is normal, synchronized, and universal. But to that observer, all other frames are internally de-synchronized, with local time depending on location. This is what I call "time slippage", and it is usually a much larger effect than that resulting from clock rates changing.
Of course, an observer in one of those de-synchronized frames sees just the reverse. Time for him/her is normal and universal, but is de-synchronized in the original observer's frame. -|Tom|-
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21 years 4 months ago #5998
by Jright
Replied by Jright on topic Reply from
A quick question about something
I am traveling just one MPH less than the speed of light, and I throw a baseball in the direction of motion. How is it possible that I can throw it faster than one MPH?
How can my reference frame be normal?
I am traveling just one MPH less than the speed of light, and I throw a baseball in the direction of motion. How is it possible that I can throw it faster than one MPH?
How can my reference frame be normal?
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