Physical Axioms and Attractive Forces

[tvf] "First thoughts: It's not the elysium that is entrained, but the elysium gradient (presumably a pressure gradient)."

This sounds a lot like what I'm trying to say I when talk about dynamic entrainment. Individual elysons enter the gravitational force field around a mass, flow through that field (and perhaps through the mass as well), then exit the field. No individual elyson separates from the flow and atttaches to the mass, but they do move closer together (density model) or press harder against eacy other (pressure model) as differential graviton impacts in the vicintity of a mass dictate.

[tvf] "Light then is a wave in that pressure gradient rather than a wave in bulk elysium. So light ignores the bulk flow and just propagates as pressure fluctuations."

I can't figure out what you mean here. Bulk flow should be irrelevant, because it is just a matter of perspective (is the elysium flowing past the mass, or is the mass moving through the elysium). But how does a pressure or density gradient in the elysium do anything but refract the wave as it moves from a region with no gradient to one with a gradient?

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Suppose we use your trick from <i>Dark Matter</i> and examine elysium from first principles. Or close to first principles. We can begin with a very simple set of initial conditions.

* What is elysium like out in one of those great voids, where the nearest proton might be 1000 light years away and the nearest Sol sized mass might be 10 million light years away?
* A reference frame at rest wrt one elyson will probably be at rest with all of its neighbors.
* The presure and density of the elysium is constant for hundreds of light years in all directions.
* A light wave propagates past this frame, causing fluctuations in the density and/or pressure of the elysium. Individual elysons move from their rest coordinates a little.
* After it passes, the individual elysons return to their starting coordinates in the frame.


* How does this patch of elysium respond when a proton moves through it at 300 km/sec (0.001c)?
* Its large gravitational force field causes individual elysons to either move closer together (density model) or to push harder on each other (pressure model). Or more likely some combination of the two. These results are driven by the effect of the proton's gravitational force field on individual elysons.
* If any individual elysons begin to move with the proton, we would say that they had been statically entrained. We might also say that some of the elysium had been statically entrained.
* If any individual elysons return to their original coordinates in the frame, we would say that they had been dynamically entrained. We might also say that some of the elysium had been dynamically entrained.


* How does this patch of elysium respond when a star moves through it at 300 km/sec?
* Pretty much the same?


* A light wave moves toward the star. It has been propagating for a distance of millions of light years when we begin to pay attention to it.
* It enters the (gradient field?) (entrained elysium?) around the star at a distance of about 5,000 light years, and begins to refract ever so slightly. The slightness of the effect is due mostly to the slightness of the gradient at this diatance. But as this beam is destined to pass very close to the star it is also moving almost radially.
* It passes within 1 million kilometers of the star at closest approach, and experiences maximum refraction.
* It moves away from the star. Refraction declines and at 5,000 light years becomes nil.
* It continues on for millions of light years after we loose interest. Through elysium that is unchanged in density or pressure over vast distances and long periods of time.

LB

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[tvf]: Light then is a wave in that pressure gradient rather than a wave in bulk elysium. So light ignores the bulk flow and just propagates as pressure fluctuations.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I can't figure out what you mean here. Bulk flow should be irrelevant<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Classical thinking is that aether/elysium is THE light-carrying medium. This is a variant on that idea, because lightwaves ignore the bulk flow and are merely pressure variations in the elysium. My point was only to emphasize the break with classical thinking. -|Tom|-

<i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
This sounds a lot like what I'm trying to say I when talk about dynamic entrainment. Individual elysons enter the gravitational force field around a mass, flow through that field (and perhaps through the mass as well), then exit the field. No individual elyson separates from the flow and atttaches to the mass, but they do move closer together (density model) or press harder against eacy other (pressure model) as differential graviton impacts in the vicintity of a mass dictate.
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But if your mass (a proton) is spherical, how do the elysons leave?

In regard to the effect of pressure on something barely compressible, please examine the steam tables. A huge increase in pressure is required to compress the water but only a very slight change in temperature changes the density of the water!!

Gregg Wilson
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<i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
I can't figure out what you mean here. Bulk flow should be irrelevant, because it is just a matter of perspective (is the elysium flowing past the mass, or is the mass moving through the elysium). But how does a pressure or density gradient in the elysium do anything but refract the wave as it moves from a region with no gradient to one with a gradient?

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The proton is dead in the water. The elysons are moving. The proton doesn't have to do anything but<b> be in the way.</b>

Gregg Wilson
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<i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>

Suppose we use your trick from <i>Dark Matter</i> and examine elysium from first principles. Or close to first principles. We can begin with a very simple set of initial conditions.

* What is elysium like out in one of those great voids, where the nearest proton might be 1000 light years away and the nearest Sol sized mass might be 10 million light years away?
* A reference frame at rest wrt one elyson will probably be at rest with all of its neighbors.
* The presure and density of the elysium is constant for hundreds of light years in all directions.
* A light wave propagates past this frame, causing fluctuations in the density and/or pressure of the elysium. Individual elysons move from their rest coordinates a little.
* After it passes, the individual elysons return to their starting coordinates in the frame.
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I agree!!

Gregg Wilson
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<i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
* How does this patch of elysium respond when a proton moves through it at 300 km/sec (0.001c)?
* Its large gravitational force field causes individual elysons to either move closer together (density model) or to push harder on each other (pressure model). Or more likely some combination of the two. These results are driven by the effect of the proton's gravitational force field on individual elysons.
* If any individual elysons begin to move with the proton, we would say that they had been statically entrained. We might also say that some of the elysium had been statically entrained.
* If any individual elysons return to their original coordinates in the frame, we would say that they had been dynamically entrained. We might also say that some of the elysium had been dynamically entrained.
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Let the Elysium be dynamic. The proton does not have to move.

Gregg Wilson
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* How does this patch of elysium respond when a star moves through it at 300 km/sec?
* Pretty much the same?
<hr noshade size="1">ditto
Gregg Wilson
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<i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
* A light wave moves toward the star. It has been propagating for a distance of millions of light years when we begin to pay attention to it.
* It enters the (gradient field?) (entrained elysium?) around the star at a distance of about 5,000 light years, and begins to refract ever so slightly. The slightness of the effect is due mostly to the slightness of the gradient at this diatance. But as this beam is destined to pass very close to the star it is also moving almost radially.
* It passes within 1 million kilometers of the star at closest approach, and experiences maximum refraction.
* It moves away from the star. Refraction declines and at 5,000 light years becomes nil.
* It continues on for millions of light years after we loose interest. Through elysium that is unchanged in density or pressure over vast distances and long periods of time.
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I am not a fan of all things being the same at all scales, but now I will invoke this idea. Let the Sun be a spherical proton. The Elysium on the Sun has nowhere to go (there is no downhill direction). So the gravitational flux keeps on transferring momentum to the trapped Elysium. Why doesn't the Sun go supernova?

Well, we have nuclear fusion. We are told that nuclear fusion releases energy. Baloney. It encapsulates energy (Removes Elysium from the outside). When nuclear fusion is no longer possible, the Sun goes supernova.

So.....how does the proton accomplish nuclear fusion?

Gregg Wilson

So.....how does the proton accomplish nuclear fusion?

Gregg Wilson

The proton doesn't but the neutron may. Decay of the neutron leaves a proton and a beta particle (an electron). The process that then creates neutrons is fusion in nature, while the beta decay is fission. At least at this microscale.



Mark Vitrone

Hi Tom, I only just noticed your reply to my comments on the ether. I believe that the ether adheres to matter rather like an atmosphere. its fall of is at an inverse fourth power of the radius.

As a B.E condensate composed of paired neutrinos, it would permeate the mass object as well. It's a zero to light speed substance. As a condensate it slows light. Pop this into anotherr substance which has ftl properties. An ftl graviton enters a region of altered matter state i.e. the refractive index of this space is swapped over in sign. It hasa close encounter with a paired neutrino, a boson, Let's suppose that it can see the pair, and it can switch the r.i. of one of them. Then we could have a total internal relfection between the pair, the boson stores energy.

I think that this "material" works rather like glass, it's a non Newtonian liquid, or solid. Its stress and strain will be dynamically out of phase.

Last point, a toroidal electron or proton, would have a massive ether energy density through the hole in the doughnut [8D] Maybe we should be thinking of the problem, as a resonance one, or even a holography problem [8D]

(Edited) Suppose I took two counter rotating cylinders and put them into a fast flowing medium. Then they will move toward each other, the Bernoulli effect. Now let's say, we have fast moving electron pairs, their motion restricts the degree of freedom of the conductor atoms, so they emit phonons. The question is, once we have induced this state, can we then raise the temperature outside the conductor?

Hmm, one step further. the repulsive forces between two electrons is tremendous. If an ftl graviton flow can flip the r.i. of the space of one of the electron pair, the two would stay together. What about having our neutron being built up of electrons and positrons? Then our ftl graviton could do the job of the gluon. We also get rid of the thorny problem of where all our positrons went to. []

[LB] “[In the dynamic entrainment model] individual elysons enter the gravitational force field around a mass, flow through that field (and perhaps through the mass as well), then exit the field. No individual elyson separates from the flow and attaches to the mass, but they do move closer together (density model) or press harder against each other (pressure model) as differential graviton impacts in the vicinity of a mass dictate.”

(Note that this description is from the point of view of a stationary particle in a moving field of elysium.)

[Gregg] “But if your mass (a proton) is spherical, how do the elysons leave?”

The same way they leave if the mass is a &lt;pick any geometric shape you want.&gt;.. I do not understand how the shape of the mass could possibly be relevant here (especially in the dynamic entrainment model, where there is no possibility of them NOT leaving under any circumstance).