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Absorbtion and Emission in QED
20 years 6 months ago #9743
by Gregg
"The cause cannot exist in the effect."
Reply:
The effect cannot exist without a cause. Are you going to say that the moon exists only when you observe it? Mind above reality?
Gregg Wilson
Reply from Gregg Wilson was created by Gregg
"The cause cannot exist in the effect."
Reply:
The effect cannot exist without a cause. Are you going to say that the moon exists only when you observe it? Mind above reality?
Gregg Wilson
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20 years 6 months ago #9864
by mhelland
Replied by mhelland on topic Reply from Mike Helland
My personal hypothesis is that there a multiple sets of information in the universe. The set we call nature is produced by a larger encompassing set that we cannot see. I call this Fundamental Nature.
Einstein believed in the same thing, but he called it Objective Reality or Absolute space and Absolute Time.
Leibniz believed in something similiar too, he called the fundamental matter of this metaphysical realm a "monad."
Take a look at the link I provided if you'd like to learn more about my ideas.
mhelland@techmocracy.net
Einstein believed in the same thing, but he called it Objective Reality or Absolute space and Absolute Time.
Leibniz believed in something similiar too, he called the fundamental matter of this metaphysical realm a "monad."
Take a look at the link I provided if you'd like to learn more about my ideas.
mhelland@techmocracy.net
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20 years 6 months ago #9687
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
You just started a thread about a topic and there are now several topics. The several topics cannot all be covered in one page or one book even so can the topics be focused in some way? The detail about emission/absorption is a very big topic all by itself. The model of photons getting captured by electrons is very popular and I wonder if it hides a lot of truth by being so useful. What if the electron is a virtual rather than real particle?
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20 years 6 months ago #9986
by mhelland
Replied by mhelland on topic Reply from Mike Helland
Jim, you ask the question, what if the electron is virtual rather than real?
My paper takes on this issue, and mostly says "yes" but to give a satisfactory answer we actually refine a great deal of the terminology and introduce some very new concepts. (Well, not "very" new as these concepts are strongly related to Leibniz's "monad".)
Basically, we have this:
agentE1
agentP1
agentE2
We have three agents in our little model. These are not particles. These are not waves. They are just some hypothetical agents of a model that don't actually correspond to anything that exists in reality.
Their positions and momentums are known with full certainty in the model.
E1 emits P1 and P1 is abosrbed by E2.
We will say E1 is contained in a larger configuration of agents, as is E2. When the interaction occurs information is transmitted about E1 to E2. This information is not all of the possible information about E1, it is simply the information relayed by P1.
This information about E1 is the electron. It is what we call real. The information relayed to E2 about E1 is not exactly equal to E1 itself. As an analogy, when you observe a coffee mug, you do not observe the entire essence of the mug, just a fraction of it. Same here.
The information about E1 is incomplete, and were we to attempt to gain more information about E1 we would not get certain information about a single state of E1, as every interaction with E1 changes its state slightly.
We see here that E1 is some certain object in a determinate model, but when information about E1 is relayed by other agents in the model the result is incomlete information that we have called the electron.
This is how electrons (and photons and all other matter) have show a wave-particle duality, and this is how the Uncertainty Principle arises in nature.
So, to answer your question, is the electron virtual?
We will restate this question as multiple questions:
1. Is the electron "real"?
Sure
2. Is there something virtual about the electron, however?
Yes.
First, the electron is only "real" because it is a set of information we have gathered from our interaction in nature and we have called this information "the electron." The same goes for a photon. Noone's "seen" a photon in the way they would expect to see it, though we have all seen effects of light. The click of a photomultiplier, the brightness of a star, the thermal radiation. These effects we have collectively grouped information of into a single entity and named it "the photon"
Second, the electron may be "real" but its existence appears to depend on a hypothetical agent in the universe that is not "real".
There is plenty more to say on this. For example, if the larger configuration of E2 has some analytical capabilitiy there are consequences of the interaction. The configuration may make the following analysi:
1. I interacted with something else
2. This something else exists at a distance from me
3. I changed state
More interestingly we can describe these analysis as:
1. There is Matter
2. There is Space
3. There is Time
This is how these three concepts manifest themselves in the information we call nature.
This interpretation of the absorbtion and emission of force carrying particles (whether it is the photon, graviton, or nuclear bosons isn't too important) is consistent with QM in a strangely intuitive way, and it is consistent with nearly all of Relativity though it can be shown to eliminate the need for Relativity on a theoretical basis.
Again, this is all written up with plenty of detail in my paper:
www.techmocracy.net/science/time.htm
mhelland@techmocracy.net
My paper takes on this issue, and mostly says "yes" but to give a satisfactory answer we actually refine a great deal of the terminology and introduce some very new concepts. (Well, not "very" new as these concepts are strongly related to Leibniz's "monad".)
Basically, we have this:
agentE1
agentP1
agentE2
We have three agents in our little model. These are not particles. These are not waves. They are just some hypothetical agents of a model that don't actually correspond to anything that exists in reality.
Their positions and momentums are known with full certainty in the model.
E1 emits P1 and P1 is abosrbed by E2.
We will say E1 is contained in a larger configuration of agents, as is E2. When the interaction occurs information is transmitted about E1 to E2. This information is not all of the possible information about E1, it is simply the information relayed by P1.
This information about E1 is the electron. It is what we call real. The information relayed to E2 about E1 is not exactly equal to E1 itself. As an analogy, when you observe a coffee mug, you do not observe the entire essence of the mug, just a fraction of it. Same here.
The information about E1 is incomplete, and were we to attempt to gain more information about E1 we would not get certain information about a single state of E1, as every interaction with E1 changes its state slightly.
We see here that E1 is some certain object in a determinate model, but when information about E1 is relayed by other agents in the model the result is incomlete information that we have called the electron.
This is how electrons (and photons and all other matter) have show a wave-particle duality, and this is how the Uncertainty Principle arises in nature.
So, to answer your question, is the electron virtual?
We will restate this question as multiple questions:
1. Is the electron "real"?
Sure
2. Is there something virtual about the electron, however?
Yes.
First, the electron is only "real" because it is a set of information we have gathered from our interaction in nature and we have called this information "the electron." The same goes for a photon. Noone's "seen" a photon in the way they would expect to see it, though we have all seen effects of light. The click of a photomultiplier, the brightness of a star, the thermal radiation. These effects we have collectively grouped information of into a single entity and named it "the photon"
Second, the electron may be "real" but its existence appears to depend on a hypothetical agent in the universe that is not "real".
There is plenty more to say on this. For example, if the larger configuration of E2 has some analytical capabilitiy there are consequences of the interaction. The configuration may make the following analysi:
1. I interacted with something else
2. This something else exists at a distance from me
3. I changed state
More interestingly we can describe these analysis as:
1. There is Matter
2. There is Space
3. There is Time
This is how these three concepts manifest themselves in the information we call nature.
This interpretation of the absorbtion and emission of force carrying particles (whether it is the photon, graviton, or nuclear bosons isn't too important) is consistent with QM in a strangely intuitive way, and it is consistent with nearly all of Relativity though it can be shown to eliminate the need for Relativity on a theoretical basis.
Again, this is all written up with plenty of detail in my paper:
www.techmocracy.net/science/time.htm
mhelland@techmocracy.net
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20 years 6 months ago #9918
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
I agree there is matter/space/time and the photon. All these are real but the electron is not real. Having models that need particles to carry force or energy is a big problem. The photon is emitted and absorbed in some kind of logical process and there is nothing strange about it even if it is a mystery to us. The strange stuff gets added in by the models. I know there is a need for models and they do a good job in so far as they are used with caution. Pushing a model too far generates more and more strangeness.
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20 years 6 months ago #10048
by Thomas
Replied by Thomas on topic Reply from Thomas Smid
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mhelland</i>
The idea behind quantum electrodynamics (QED) is this:
Two electrons interact by repulsing each other at a distance. This repulsion is mediated by a 3rd entity we call a photon. The first electron emits the photon and the second electron absorbs the photon.
The result is a change in wavelengths of the electrons.
The question is, by what mechanism in the universe does this absorbtion and emission of a photon (an entity with both particle-like and wave-like properties) occur?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
QED is in my opinion a logically flawed theory as it wrongly applies concepts of Classical Physics like 'energy' and 'momentum' to light (see my my webpage about the Photoeffect ). Quantum Field Theory in general is merely a naive construct based on the assumption that all physical phenomena (e.g. light) behaves according to classical physics, i.e. that a Hamiltonian (or Lagrangian) function exists for the corresponding system. It is obviously a circular conclusion if one assumes for instance that virtual photons are the mediators of the electrostatic field, because in order to excert any force these photons would themselves have to possess a static force field of some kind, which not only is an unfounded assumption but actually contradicts experiments (as shown under the above link).
www.physicsmyths.org.uk
www.plasmaphysics.org.uk
The idea behind quantum electrodynamics (QED) is this:
Two electrons interact by repulsing each other at a distance. This repulsion is mediated by a 3rd entity we call a photon. The first electron emits the photon and the second electron absorbs the photon.
The result is a change in wavelengths of the electrons.
The question is, by what mechanism in the universe does this absorbtion and emission of a photon (an entity with both particle-like and wave-like properties) occur?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
QED is in my opinion a logically flawed theory as it wrongly applies concepts of Classical Physics like 'energy' and 'momentum' to light (see my my webpage about the Photoeffect ). Quantum Field Theory in general is merely a naive construct based on the assumption that all physical phenomena (e.g. light) behaves according to classical physics, i.e. that a Hamiltonian (or Lagrangian) function exists for the corresponding system. It is obviously a circular conclusion if one assumes for instance that virtual photons are the mediators of the electrostatic field, because in order to excert any force these photons would themselves have to possess a static force field of some kind, which not only is an unfounded assumption but actually contradicts experiments (as shown under the above link).
www.physicsmyths.org.uk
www.plasmaphysics.org.uk
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