Deep-Gas, Deep Hot Biosphere Theory

I've studied the cycles used in doing this job and clearly the best way to do it is the freeze way. The V/C(vapor-comp)method can be applied to make it work very efficient. I figured out how to do this and never got a dime for the effort so forget that. Anyway from what you have posted I gather you want a system to use in nuclear plants that boil water to make electric power. You could eliminate the cooling tower and make ice thereby making the overall process much more efficient and acceptible. The vaccuum needed is no where near what exists in space-all thats required is ~500pa or so.

Gregg, Brine has no magical properties=brine remains fluid well below a temperature where water's triple point dwells. This simple fact can be used it cool a brine at low pressure below 273K and then used to remove the latent heat of fusion very efficiently from a body of seawater. The removed heat can be managed in several ways depending on whatever factors are most important. Its quite a bit different than what mechanical engineering schools are teaching but so what?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />I've studied the cycles used in doing this job and clearly the best way to do it is the freeze way. The V/C(vapor-comp)method can be applied to make it work very efficient. I figured out how to do this and never got a dime for the effort so forget that.
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<i>You are going to compress - water vapor? - at 0.725 psia? Your compressor would be montrous and it would have resist vacuum collapse. If you are vaporizing water - at very low pressure and temperature of course - that is <b>boiling</b>. Then what? What is the source of low temperature? What is the source of high temperature? How is useless heat disposed of? If it works, why forget it?</i>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
Anyway from what you have posted I gather you want a system to use in nuclear plants that boil water to make electric power. You could eliminate the cooling tower and make ice thereby making the overall process much more efficient and acceptible. The vaccuum needed is no where near what exists in space-all thats required is ~500pa or so.
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<i>I have made no reference to the nuclear plant - steam - electrical power chain. We have a customer. He has a waste water of whatever chemistry. He wants to reclaim most of the water with a purity specified by him. He wants to minimize the volume of solids waste. His use for the reclaimed water varies tremendously. From high pressure boilers to semiconductor processing to irrigation to medical use.</i>

<b>You have to explain your process, not simply decree that it is superior.</b>

Gregg Wilson

Gregg, Volume is a problem for sure but not collapse. Any modern condenser could operate at the lower pressure. The volume, the gas is so light it might be the gas can be moved fast enough to offset that. A high rotor speed and the low compression ratio needed to get from the boil@273K to evap@280? or so. The ice forms as snow falling into the brine which will be quite a bit lower in temperature due to the fact its supplying all the energy required by the environment. Very little movement occurs in the brine except the colder stuff sinks seeking energy-which it gets from outside the system. As you can see the leaks and work requirements need to be serviced.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />Gregg, Volume is a problem for sure but not collapse. Any modern condenser could operate at the lower pressure.
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A condenser operating at 0.725 psia would have to be very strongly built and coded for full vacuum. What is the cooling fluid? Are you releasing cool brine through a flash valve into the condenser shell or tubeside head? A very small amount of water would vaporize but then what?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
The volume, the gas is so light it might be the gas can be moved fast enough to offset that. A high rotor speed and the low compression ratio needed to get from the boil@273K to evap@280? or so.
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A very small mass of water vapor would occupy a tremendous volume. Are you pulling it through a compressor? It would be the size of a city block! When compressing a vapor to a higher pressure, the vapor would be superheated. With 274 K going to 280 K, the pressure would rise from 0.08859 psia to 0.14196 psia. Are you condensing this steam? It will require an incredible amount of surface area. Now the condenser is the size of a city block!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
The ice forms as snow falling into the brine which will be quite a bit lower in temperature due to the fact its supplying all the energy required by the environment. Very little movement occurs in the brine except the colder stuff sinks seeking energy-which it gets from outside the system. As you can see the leaks and work requirements need to be serviced.
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One would form a very small amount of ice if you are sending <b>32 F water</b> through a flash valve. That leaves a very small amount of ice in cold brine. How is this mixture removed from a high vacuum chamber? And what is the steam coming out of the compressor doing? It is heat source, not a heat sink. How is the whole operation made cold? How are non-condensible gases removed from either the shellside or the tubeside of the unit? What about the electrical load on a mammoth compressor? Not to mention the tip speed, which would send the impeller blades blasting through the casing...


If you are condensing the discharge steam, what fluid is used to condense it? As in all physics and thermodynamics, there has to be an energy balance in addition to a mass balance.

Gregg Wilson

Hi Gregg, You can do better than this, I'm sure. What needs to be done to make ice is remove heat from water. Water does not exist at a pressure of 500pa so you should ask how much does it cost to setup an environment of some volume maintaining a pressure of 500pa? it may be this cannot be done as a practical matter. OK it can't be done. Back to the drawing board-how about if you do it in steps and the same answer applies. So, rather than 500pa what would be the lowest practical pressure a V/C cycle using water as a working fluid can have? Now with that answer a new design can whipped up. Then it would ok to get on to step two.