My pareidolia knows no bounds.

Before a consciousness (#3) can exist, there has to be a place for it to exist. (statement/question)
Lets go with this being a statement of fact. LB.
(I'm reluctant to rule out anything, but this one is almost a slam-dunk.)

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Pareidoliac- The void has consciousness. It doesn't need concepts like time/space/logic. We are in the quantum world of Zippy-
Time and space are real concepts but are not real. Reality is most clearly depicted by David Bohm (Hologramatic view of the universe ). Parmenides view also eliminates concepts like time and space. Clocks and Rulers prove nothing about the existence of time and space. The past and future are embedded in the now. So what we have is a void. This void has consciousness and once consciousness exists it recognizes patterns that consciousness is programed to perceive or not. It is programmed to have consciousness expand and contract. This consciousness expansion unfolds what appears to be matter which is enfolded in consciousness- to a being with sensory apparatus. The matter in reality is electromagnetic-field-gravity + ?... Consciousness has nothing to do with time/ space any more than anything else. This is why on some level we feel exactly like we did as far back as our memory allows.
Everything we perceive has followed a path and is 12-50 billion years old whether a child or an object. (in terms of what is called time/space). The universe is in each thing as it is in the universe- they co-create each other. Newton may be IMPORTANT but Bohr and Bohm might have made Newton see things differently. The main issue to me is gravity- which points me to believe that we are in cyberspace and it is part of the program we are in. What we call cyber space is the second level. When cyberspace advances so we don't know if we are in it or not is what we actually have and are in now. We are in hologramatic cyber space with the universe in a grain of sand. The glass onion is made of layers of cyberspaces (programs or patterns) with consciousness at it's core.

<i>Originally posted by shando</i>
<br /><b>pareidoliac: If any thinking is done- thoughts come to us. Thinking is not an active process. Doing and Being are active.</b>

Active thinking takes place when we are active physically. The thoughts have more life/ vitality. Ordinary thinking is more sluggish. Thinking takes time and is different from revelation which requires no time and is more meaningful. When fasting from food thought slows way down. A large alteration of thought is food/ drug/ medicine previously consumed. When fasting from speech thought is radically altered.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
<br /><b>[shando] "... #2 has to happen before #1 can happen."</b>

Actually, no.

Discussion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

OK, I should have said "alter the physical" instead of "new things" so my revised statement is:

I find when I want to alter the physical to create new combinations (ie: inventing), #2 has to happen before #1 can happen.

LB:
#1 (physical things) is totally unconditional.
#2 (conceptual things) is totally conditional.
#3 (conscious things) is indeterminate at this time.

LB: Things with physical existence (#1) ... exist. (waddayamean circular?)

Assumption:
physical existence = able to be proven to occupy space within a (the) universe.

LB: Before a consciousness (#3) can exist, there has to be a place for it to exist.

Assumption:
"place" = a location with "physical existence"?

This seems to imply that a "thing" having physical existence is necessary in order to have consciousness.

LB: Lets go with this being a statement of fact.

Pareidoliac- The void has consciousness. It doesn't need concepts like time/space/logic.

Assumption:
Consciousness does not need "physical existence"?

Does a computer program require a place to exist?

Probably it needs at least one place in order to exist, but it can also exist in many places simultaneously, depending on the "things" it is designed to interact with (including itself).

If consciousness is an algorithm or a program, perhaps it can also exist in many places simultaneously, depending on the "things" it is designed to interact with (including itself).

LB: Before a concept (#2) can exist, there has to be a conceiver. (statement)
I'm very sure about this one. But take your best shot.

This one seems valid.

LB: So, first there are things (#1) with physical existence.
Then from that foundation arises things (#3) with consciousness.
Finally the consciousness thinks about something, and a concept (#2) comes into existence.

Discussion?

IMHO:

1. Our universe has "things" in it.
2. Our universe has "things" with consciousness in it.
3. We don't know if #1 led to #2, or if #2 led to #1, or if #1 and #2 are co-dependent (ie: occurred together).
4. Things with consciousness tend to think about re-arrangements of the "things" in our universe - these are called ideas or concepts.
5. Ideas and concepts are real but have no "physical existence" (ie: are not "things").

Things are not separate any more than a whirlpool is separate. A thing like a whirlpool is a pattern. When it can no longer maintain it's integrity it starts returning to the dimension from which it came. We were all in this dimension before birth. We were not born into the universe but reassembled into the only universe.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by pareidoliac</i>
<br />

<i>Originally posted by shando</i>
<br /><b>pareidoliac: If any thinking is done- thoughts come to us. Thinking is not an active process. Doing and Being are active.</b>

Active thinking takes place when we are active physically. The thoughts have more life/ vitality. Ordinary thinking is more sluggish. Thinking takes time and is different from revelation which requires no time and is more meaningful. When fasting from food thought slows way down. A large alteration of thought is food/ drug/ medicine previously consumed. When fasting from speech thought is radically altered.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

pareidoliac: Active thinking takes place when we are active physically.

I find that the quality (life/ vitality) of my thinking is dependent on my ability to concentrate, which is heavily influenced by my physical condition and is best when I am well-rested.

pareidoliac: Thinking takes time and is different from revelation which requires no time and is more meaningful.

I find that the revelations occurring to me have usually been seeded by meditative thinking about the subject matter of the revelation.

It seems as if, after I have outlined the facts about a given situation and the desired outcome, my subconscious takes over and solves the problem, which is delivered to my conscious mind as a revelation. I am unable to predict how long this process will take but I know from experience that the answer will come, eventually.

My conclusion is that revelations do take time - just not contiguous time.

I have not noticed the effects of food, no food or physical activity on the speed or quality of my thought processes. I have noticed that my creative thinking ability seems enhanced while driving long distances.