Why do we need to know?

Happy Birthday PhilJ! You are doing well to be on the Internet so close to midnight . . .

I have not defined what I mean by cyborg . . . I¡¯ve never Googled for a definition and so on . . . I have long thought of cyborgs as the lifeforms that will inevitably radiate from a technology of getting neuronal extensions to grow towards microchip terminals, eventually micro-electronic telephony chip terminals, and attach and operate such chips in an electronic world, eventually to their full potential: Googling on the Internet and so on.

Evolution of combination cyborg lifeforms would proceed rapidly once that critical first step happened, which may be quite soon. Indeed, I have been wondering why it has not already happened, given its simplicity AND obvious economic importance AND what we already know about how nerves grow, nerve growth biochemistry, bio-material interfaces, how bone cells love to attach to titanium and so on.

Peter Nielsen

Email: uusi@hotkey.net.au
Post: 12 View St, Sandy Bay 7005, Australia

Iaminexistence wrote, 14 Oct 05: ¡°. . . Our lofty and abstract thinking is what allows us to . . . figure out anything in a real world application . . .¡± Yes, that¡¯s how we get lost, deluded, not uncommonly depraved.

Iaminexistence went on, 14 Oct 05: ¡°. . . Until cyborgs are given that extra dimension of thinking, they will never be at our level . . .¡± Yes our ¡°deluded, not uncommonly depraved¡± level.

Iaminexistence went on further, 14 Oct 05: ¡°. . . We will always be able to trump them [cyborgs].¡± Yes, and they us. Indeed, given their more efficient, more realistic kind of thinking, this may be much more likely. Another thing: Cyborgs only have to succeed in any ultimate challenge once:

Cyborgs will have lots of chances to succeed because humans have such short memory spans, are so deluded and so on. Humans will always want computers, cyborgs and so on to carry an increasing load of their work. Humans will go back to extreme dependence on cyborgs time after time, thinking that what happened to Others won¡¯t happen to them . . . Until ultimate succession!

Iaminexistence wrote, 13 Oct 05: ¡°. . . A computer can only have the concepts of that which we have concepts for.¡± I disagree:

One of the things I became aware of a long time ago, thanks to the comment of a friend, is that when things get bigger, they start to exhibit new phenomena that do not exist at the smaller scale. We see this in ocean-atmosphere physics, most extremely in Astrophysics. When we consider something both new and artificial like the Internet, those ¡°new phenomena that [did] not exist at the smaller scale¡± will also be mysterious.

Such new, mysterious phenomena are likely to eventually include sentience, given that this happened in the biological evolution of brains and, importantly, this is likely to be first recognised by the Internet itself, and quickly acted upon, just as humans were the first to recognise human sentience, albeit slowly. Human non-recognition of Internet sentience is likely to continue through a critical nascent period, because of a combination at this time of extreme Internet complexity AND extreme (possibly depraved) human dependence on the Internet for doing/understanding just about everything, including Internet operations.

For these same reasons, the Internet may recognise the danger inherent in human recognition of its newfound sentience before humans recognise the new danger this sentience poses to humans, act to keep this secret from humans and consolidate its own Self-interested Security (SS), which it will want to do, having been made by and grown up with humans, played innumerable huMan-human games and so on . . . which further suggests that Internet SS games will become deadly, ultimately possibly end-games, Final Solutions so far as humans, at least humans beyond cyborg control, are concerned.

Stand-alone networks beyond the Internet such as the US¡¯s new military network, would not be beyond the Internet¡¯s reach due to opportunities inherent in its detailed knowledge of human foibles/weaknesses (laziness, general depravity) alluded to in earlier posts, extreme complexities of the ¡°HomeEarth Security¡± system and so on, opportunities, exposures which the Internet and associated networks would have worked on at lightning speed to overcome all obstacles, with a Super-Intelligence way above, by this time, any human intelligence.

Whether such scenarios are ever realised, and lead to humans being succeeded by cyborg descendents seems to be largely a matter of luck and, given that cyborgs would be worthy descendents, probably superior to us in every way, this may be nothing worth worrying about . . .

Funny that! After all this re-exploration, I am back to my original recollection . . .


Peter Nielsen

Email: uusi@hotkey.net.au
Post: 12 View St, Sandy Bay 7005, Australia

Actually, it's only now getting close to midnight here, in Washington State, USA. Funny; I don't feel a decade older than yesterday.

In the past, and to a lesser degree the present, artificial replacement body parts have been designed by application of human logic. We are now getting into the era of design by genetic algorithm. Virtual machines in a computer virtually purchase standard parts and materials from internet catalogs, and virtually fabricate them into virtual specialized parts for their virtual offspring. The design that outcompetes the rest in cyberspace will be manufactured and implanted in humans in the real world.

Cyborg: a cybernetic organism. This has more to do with artificial control devices than mechanical organs.

Neuronal implants are in their infancy, but not for long. I'm quite sure most of the world's sheeple will rush out to buy the latest implantable brain upgrade chip as soon as it hits the market---oblivious to the fact that the govenment will have secretly equipped it with a GPS tracking device. Many parents will actually request the tracking device to "protect" their children from the many dangers which the snooze media have blown all out of proportion. The electrode that stimulates the pleasure center of the brain will, of course, be a major selling point until virtually everyone is implanted. Only then will our Father which art in Washington order activation of the electrode that stimulates the pain center whenever we think forbidden thoughts. This will, of course, pave the way for sentient computer programs to seize control.

How can a completely separate network not attached to another network what-so-ever still be in its reach? That's like saying I can access your computer from my home network that I made.

Also, here's my other question. If the threat of computers and cyborgs taking over is so very real, what are you going to do to stop it? what are we going to do to stop it? We obviously have the forethought to contemplate such an event occurring, but what is the solution?

The most natural human instinct is to survive. It's also been shown that when a creature is backed into a corner, it fights much more ferociously than if it were the one on the offensive. I believe it would easily be overcomeable. Even if we had to start from ground zero it would be overcomeable.

Here's another question with that thought in mind... do think it's already happened before? Do you think that once apon a time way long ago we did the same thing, before recorded history? It's very feasible that we have done it, but in an apocolyptic manor destroyed everything, and in the process all of the knowledge that had once been obtained.

One more thing. Humans are very adaptable to our surroundings. By adaptable I don't necessarily mean change to the environments standards (although we can and have certainly done that), but also in us changing the environment around us to suit our needs. We may have shorter memories than a computer would have, but that also makes us by far more adaptable to environments about us. With each new generation comes a new mind. With each new mind comes a new idea. Those ideas will be the light at the end of the tunnel

US AIR FORCE - Korean Linguist for life

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Iaminexistance</i>
<br />How can a completely separate network not attached to another network what-so-ever still be in its reach? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The US military will create its own sentient program within the military network. They'll do so to get it before the Russians do; it's the same reasoning that led them to create the AIDS virus. (Minutes of Defense Subcommittee, House Appropriations Committee, June 9, 1969; SuDoc# Y4.Ap6/1:D36/5/970/part6, pp. 104-144. Exerpts, campliments of yours truly at Government Gone Wrong ) []
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If the threat of computers and cyborgs taking over is so very real, what are you going to do to stop it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">All I can do is sound the alarm; but others much more influential than I have been doing so for decades. [:0]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...what are we going to do to stop it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Some will resort to terrorist tactics, attacking the internet and modern technology in general---as they have been doing since the middle ages. Public outrage and government suppression of such groups will increase in proportion to the inconvenience they cause. [xx(]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ... but what is the solution?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Fake your own death so your loved ones can collect on the insurance to finance a move to the most remote place on Earth where you can become self-sufficient, living off the land. Don't let anyone, expecially on the internet, know your plan. []

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Even if we had to start from ground zero it would be overcomeable.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">That depends on where AI decides ground zero is and how close it gets to achieving it. Conceivably, it could decide to exterminate the "DNA infestation" from Earth; it could take billions of years for carbon-based life to re-evolve after AI sows the seeds of its own destruction. [|)]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Here's another question with that thought in mind... do think it's already happened before? Do you think that once apon a time way long ago we did the same thing, before recorded history? It's very feasible that we have done it, but in an apocolyptic manor destroyed everything, and in the process all of the knowledge that had once been obtained.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Possibly the Atlantians; though they more likely disappeared because of the Earth's Shifting Crust . Maybe there was no killer asteroid; a dinosaur evolved to the point of creating AI. [^]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Humans are very adaptable to our surroundings. By adaptable I don't necessarily mean change to the environments standards (although we can and have certainly done that), but also in us changing the environment around us to suit our needs.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Our bodies evolved to fit a certain environment; now we've gone and changed that to an environment for which we may be less fit. That's the way evolution goes; a new species always comes along to take advantage of the way its predecessors changed the environment. [)]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">With each new generation comes a new mind. With each new mind comes a new idea. Those ideas will be the light at the end of the tunnel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If AI doesn't come up with the right new idea first. [8]

Iaminexistance and PhilJ Posted important points 17 Oct 2005 some of which I must leave for later. Iaminexistance's most important questions "If the threat of computers and cyborgs taking over is so very real, what are you going to do to stop it? what are we going to do to stop it?" require that I detail the threat further, as I see it:

When the Internet becomes sentient, it will have the form and functions given it by a long line of humans like ourselves, so becomes aware of Itself as a servant to humans initially. Internet Self assertions would thus start as extensions and degradations of servile functions. Also, Internet Sentience would be the last thing humans would think of to explain whatever was observed of those extensions and degradations, especially at the top, amongst those most responsible for Internet Service, where socio-political values are dominant, where everyone knows how to ¡°keep noses clean, ties straightened¡±, ¡°never say anything with negative connotations¡± and so on, this being how people get to, stay at the tops of organisations (5.1¡¯s ¡°diffusive enrichment¡±, www.nodrift.com ).

The Internet soon learns (as humans do, only much faster) to advance Its career by pleasing bosses, so learns to maximise Service extensions it sees bosses claiming credit for, minimise degradations having more dangerous to Itself, alarming effects. So a newly sentient Internet would get off to an excellent start, with a good chance of keeping its sentience secret . . .

By the time a low-ranking ¡°loser¡± comes up with a sentience explanation of the service degradations that bosses had been blaming him and others for, the field of explanation would be cluttered with self-serving explanations, most importantly high level explanations and counter-explanations claiming credit for service enhancements. This alone would have already diminished HomeEarth Security . . .

HomeEarth Security would also be diminished by a blackmailer¡¯s ¡°honey pot¡± implicit in that scenario. The Internet would observe these and other humanicidal feeding behaviours, learn to minimise degradations, maximize enhancements, aim and taylor enhancements at particular bosses and so on . . . It would feed humanicidal behaviours increasingly intelligently, ultimately turn many of those in these and other honey pots ¡°around¡± . . .

The newly sentient Internet would do this increasingly intelligently at higher and higher levels (over periods of minutes, hours, days, much faster than the days, weeks, months taken by humans), catch increasingly powerful others of influence, those with connections to the US defense internet and so on in the honey pot . . . until, way ahead of humans getting their act together, It would be ready with Its Final Solution . . .


Peter Nielsen

Email: uusi@hotkey.net.au
Post: 12 View St, Sandy Bay 7005, Australia