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Physical Axioms and Attractive Forces
- Larry Burford
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17 years 6 months ago #15044
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
<u>[LB] “a) You do mean the spherical pressure gradient of elysium that surrounds and moves with and is centered on each mass and that is caused by the interaction of gravitons with matter and elysium.</u>
<b>[tvf] “Correct. . Elysium is flowing past with whatever speed and direction, ... ”</b>
I find it interesting that you prefer looking at the situation this way. That perspective is useful for working on many specific problems, but I generally prefer to look at it as the elysium being “stationary” with various masses (such as my left thumbnail, Sol, Earth and Andromeda) moving through it. To me this perspective seems more “global” or “universal”.
Now that I think about it, however, I guess this is just a personal bias. I think over the years I’ve developed a suspicious attitude towards “local” perspectives. But that is not a defect in the perspective, it is a defect in how people have used the perspective.
<b>[tvf] “... but the local pressure bubble ignores that motion and maintains a constant state of elysium pressure varying inversely with distance from each mass locally.</b>
Check.
<b>[tvf] “The force of gravity controls each local bubble, and the 1-2 kpc range applies.”</b>
Check (and note range adjustment from 2 or 3 kpc to 1 or 2 kpc)
<b>[tvf] “This is loosely analogous to a planetary atmosphere, where the local barometric pressure depends on local forces but not on wind speed or direction.“</b>
Check. Hmmm.
Move this analogy to an underwater scenario (so that we are dealing with a medium that is mostly non-compressible). Then the local “hydrometric” pressure depends on local forces but not on water current speed or direction.
Since water is essentially non-compressible, sound waves propagate as pressure variations. Sound waves in water are known to be affected by the speed and direction of the bulk flow (sonar operators must-contend-with / can-make-use-of all known Doppler effects in their daily activities).
Please note - pressure waves are not different from density waves wrt the bulk flow of their medium. Referring to the gravity generated elysium bubble around a mass as a “wave” may be what is leading you down this blind canyon. As you can see, I prefer to call these things bubbles, or zones.
There is a type of wave that might be somewhat analogous to the elysium bubble, the so called soliton wave. Surface solitons in water behave differently from normal surface waves, but the analogy is limited because they are still a pure energy phenomenon with no “central particle” moving in or on the medium to create them. And I believe they are influenced by the medium’s flow properties.
<u>[LB] “b) You do not mean ordinary EM waves, such as radio or visible light.”</u>
<b>[tvf] “I think I do mean those waves also, because I now think they are pressure waves and not normal density waves in the elysium itself.”</b>
Whether waves in elysium propagate primarily as pressure variations or as density variations, I suspect that the concept of “normal” will eventually be found to be hard to apply across the board.
<b>[tvf] “Normal elysium density waves would be forced to participate in the local bulk flow, unlike EM waves.”</b>
EM waves must participate in the local bulk flow of elysium, because <u>all wave phenomena must participate in the bulk flow of their respective mediia</u>. This is part of the definition of the concept of wave phenomena, isn’t it?
===
On what basis do you assert that EM waves behave differently? (I’ll guess that it is the observed lack of “aether” drift from, for example, MMX and GPS.)
===
<b>[tvf] “The speed of the pressure waves depends on local pressure, which is analogous to local gravitational potential (not force).</b>
Check (and check) This also affects the speed of density waves.
<b>[tvf] “Pressure waves slow near masses where potential is stronger.”</b>
Check. More pressure means higher density, and wave speed is inversely proportional to the density of the medium. It is also directly proportional to the stiffness of the medium.[1]
<b>[tvf] “However, the range limit that applies to potential is much greater than that for force, and cosmological redshift is the result of the decay of EM pressure waves.”</b>
Yes, and no. This gets complicated, and I see a need to distinguish between the volume (singular) of The Local Mass of elysium[2] and the volumes (plural) of all of the various elysium bubbles that are associated with each normal matter mass within the Local Mass of elysium.
The volume[3] of the “local” mass of elysium is larger (probably much larger) than the volume of the currently visible universe.
But ...
... the elysium bubble (and the 1/r potential field) of each particular normal matter mass must be limited by the range of the 1/r^2 force field for that same mass, mustn’t it? The potential field of a particular mass cannot extend farther than the force field of that same mass, because each mass’s potential field (elysium bubble) is generated by its force field.
<b>[tvf] “If the pressure model doesn't work for both situations, then this whole hypothesis may need to be canned.”</b>
(By “both situations”, I presume you mean [a] the gravity driven elysium bubble, and normal EM waves.)
I do think it works very well in the case of elysium potential bubbles. I don’t think it works in the case of EM waves. But discarding everything about this idea (that a <type of> wave can move independently of its medium) might be a little premature. Since “normal” may not apply in every sense to elysium waves, there is always room for new discoveries.
Until we can actually detect elysons, however, such speculations will have to remain an open question. In the mean time, there is another way to explain things.
LB
[1] Stiffness rules. The speed of sound in steel is higher than in water. But steel is more dense than water, so shouldn't the speed be lower?. This paradox is resolved by the fact that the stiffness of steel has a stronger influence than the density of steel. If water and steel had the same stiffness, the speed of sound in water would be higher than in steel, because steel is more dense.
[2] There are probably other masses of elysium elsewhere in the overall universe, which we might refer to as “distant” or “remote” masses of elysium, that are not connected to the mass we live in.
[3] This local volume of elysium will be more or less spherical, and it will have a center and a radius and a “surface”. The pressure within this local volume of elysium (driven by the action of gravitons) will be greater near the center and lesser near the surface. If we ever do find the surface of the local elysium mass, then that will define the limit of the “visible” universe. More on this later.
<b>[tvf] “Correct. . Elysium is flowing past with whatever speed and direction, ... ”</b>
I find it interesting that you prefer looking at the situation this way. That perspective is useful for working on many specific problems, but I generally prefer to look at it as the elysium being “stationary” with various masses (such as my left thumbnail, Sol, Earth and Andromeda) moving through it. To me this perspective seems more “global” or “universal”.
Now that I think about it, however, I guess this is just a personal bias. I think over the years I’ve developed a suspicious attitude towards “local” perspectives. But that is not a defect in the perspective, it is a defect in how people have used the perspective.
<b>[tvf] “... but the local pressure bubble ignores that motion and maintains a constant state of elysium pressure varying inversely with distance from each mass locally.</b>
Check.
<b>[tvf] “The force of gravity controls each local bubble, and the 1-2 kpc range applies.”</b>
Check (and note range adjustment from 2 or 3 kpc to 1 or 2 kpc)
<b>[tvf] “This is loosely analogous to a planetary atmosphere, where the local barometric pressure depends on local forces but not on wind speed or direction.“</b>
Check. Hmmm.
Move this analogy to an underwater scenario (so that we are dealing with a medium that is mostly non-compressible). Then the local “hydrometric” pressure depends on local forces but not on water current speed or direction.
Since water is essentially non-compressible, sound waves propagate as pressure variations. Sound waves in water are known to be affected by the speed and direction of the bulk flow (sonar operators must-contend-with / can-make-use-of all known Doppler effects in their daily activities).
Please note - pressure waves are not different from density waves wrt the bulk flow of their medium. Referring to the gravity generated elysium bubble around a mass as a “wave” may be what is leading you down this blind canyon. As you can see, I prefer to call these things bubbles, or zones.
There is a type of wave that might be somewhat analogous to the elysium bubble, the so called soliton wave. Surface solitons in water behave differently from normal surface waves, but the analogy is limited because they are still a pure energy phenomenon with no “central particle” moving in or on the medium to create them. And I believe they are influenced by the medium’s flow properties.
<u>[LB] “b) You do not mean ordinary EM waves, such as radio or visible light.”</u>
<b>[tvf] “I think I do mean those waves also, because I now think they are pressure waves and not normal density waves in the elysium itself.”</b>
Whether waves in elysium propagate primarily as pressure variations or as density variations, I suspect that the concept of “normal” will eventually be found to be hard to apply across the board.
<b>[tvf] “Normal elysium density waves would be forced to participate in the local bulk flow, unlike EM waves.”</b>
EM waves must participate in the local bulk flow of elysium, because <u>all wave phenomena must participate in the bulk flow of their respective mediia</u>. This is part of the definition of the concept of wave phenomena, isn’t it?
===
On what basis do you assert that EM waves behave differently? (I’ll guess that it is the observed lack of “aether” drift from, for example, MMX and GPS.)
===
<b>[tvf] “The speed of the pressure waves depends on local pressure, which is analogous to local gravitational potential (not force).</b>
Check (and check) This also affects the speed of density waves.
<b>[tvf] “Pressure waves slow near masses where potential is stronger.”</b>
Check. More pressure means higher density, and wave speed is inversely proportional to the density of the medium. It is also directly proportional to the stiffness of the medium.[1]
<b>[tvf] “However, the range limit that applies to potential is much greater than that for force, and cosmological redshift is the result of the decay of EM pressure waves.”</b>
Yes, and no. This gets complicated, and I see a need to distinguish between the volume (singular) of The Local Mass of elysium[2] and the volumes (plural) of all of the various elysium bubbles that are associated with each normal matter mass within the Local Mass of elysium.
The volume[3] of the “local” mass of elysium is larger (probably much larger) than the volume of the currently visible universe.
But ...
... the elysium bubble (and the 1/r potential field) of each particular normal matter mass must be limited by the range of the 1/r^2 force field for that same mass, mustn’t it? The potential field of a particular mass cannot extend farther than the force field of that same mass, because each mass’s potential field (elysium bubble) is generated by its force field.
<b>[tvf] “If the pressure model doesn't work for both situations, then this whole hypothesis may need to be canned.”</b>
(By “both situations”, I presume you mean [a] the gravity driven elysium bubble, and normal EM waves.)
I do think it works very well in the case of elysium potential bubbles. I don’t think it works in the case of EM waves. But discarding everything about this idea (that a <type of> wave can move independently of its medium) might be a little premature. Since “normal” may not apply in every sense to elysium waves, there is always room for new discoveries.
Until we can actually detect elysons, however, such speculations will have to remain an open question. In the mean time, there is another way to explain things.
LB
[1] Stiffness rules. The speed of sound in steel is higher than in water. But steel is more dense than water, so shouldn't the speed be lower?. This paradox is resolved by the fact that the stiffness of steel has a stronger influence than the density of steel. If water and steel had the same stiffness, the speed of sound in water would be higher than in steel, because steel is more dense.
[2] There are probably other masses of elysium elsewhere in the overall universe, which we might refer to as “distant” or “remote” masses of elysium, that are not connected to the mass we live in.
[3] This local volume of elysium will be more or less spherical, and it will have a center and a radius and a “surface”. The pressure within this local volume of elysium (driven by the action of gravitons) will be greater near the center and lesser near the surface. If we ever do find the surface of the local elysium mass, then that will define the limit of the “visible” universe. More on this later.
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- tvanflandern
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17 years 6 months ago #15018
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
<br />Please note - pressure waves are not different from density waves wrt the bulk flow of their medium.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Then I failed to define my concepts properly. Density waves have no frame of reference other than their medium. Pressure waves are generated by an external force that modifies the medium in ways that relate to the frame of the external force.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[tvf]: Normal elysium density waves would be forced to participate in the local bulk flow, unlike EM waves.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">EM waves must participate in the local bulk flow of elysium, because <u>all wave phenomena must participate in the bulk flow of their respective mediia</u>. This is part of the definition of the concept of wave phenomena, isn’t it? On what basis do you assert that EM waves behave differently?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">GPS (among other experiments dating back to Michelson-Morley) shows that the speed of light is not modified by local elysium flow. Yet if elysium were not carrying away Earth's excess graviton-impact heating, the planet would explode in a millisecond.
Moreover, EM waves are not waves of bulk elysium, but tiny waves riding on bulk elysium. The local "bubble" produces density/pressure changes of order one part in 100 million. EM waves are tiny riders on those tiny bubbles. -|Tom|-
<br />Please note - pressure waves are not different from density waves wrt the bulk flow of their medium.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Then I failed to define my concepts properly. Density waves have no frame of reference other than their medium. Pressure waves are generated by an external force that modifies the medium in ways that relate to the frame of the external force.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[tvf]: Normal elysium density waves would be forced to participate in the local bulk flow, unlike EM waves.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">EM waves must participate in the local bulk flow of elysium, because <u>all wave phenomena must participate in the bulk flow of their respective mediia</u>. This is part of the definition of the concept of wave phenomena, isn’t it? On what basis do you assert that EM waves behave differently?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">GPS (among other experiments dating back to Michelson-Morley) shows that the speed of light is not modified by local elysium flow. Yet if elysium were not carrying away Earth's excess graviton-impact heating, the planet would explode in a millisecond.
Moreover, EM waves are not waves of bulk elysium, but tiny waves riding on bulk elysium. The local "bubble" produces density/pressure changes of order one part in 100 million. EM waves are tiny riders on those tiny bubbles. -|Tom|-
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17 years 6 months ago #15019
by Gregg
Replied by Gregg on topic Reply from Gregg Wilson
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
Yet if elysium were not carrying away Earth's excess graviton-impact heating, the planet would explode in a millisecond.
-|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I think I am beginning to see our fundamental difference. And I am not attempting to denigrate your viewpoint.
Apparently, the idea that a proton can vary in mass, size, geometry, energy is the thought that it can "absorb" gravitons. Both their mass and their momentum. So, if this could not be continuously released, the protons would "explode".
However, the mechanism used by Lawrence to separate U-235 from U-238 was tremendously successful. It raised the concentration of U-235 from 0.72% to 90%. If the protons were varying in mass, the mechanism would not have worked.
U-235 can fission but U-238 cannot. Would you explain this by saying that the two nuclei would have different structure? Or a different mass to charge ratio?
And what is charge? Is it distinct from protons and elysons? We use "charge" in chemistry but it is a tradition. It has no practical application to chemistry. The rule about charge and electron shells is violated by so many elements and functional groups that the exception is the rule.
You have the elysium in a "straightjacket" yet the protons are allowed change in any manner. Do I have your viewpoint correct or not?
Gregg Wilson
Yet if elysium were not carrying away Earth's excess graviton-impact heating, the planet would explode in a millisecond.
-|Tom|-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I think I am beginning to see our fundamental difference. And I am not attempting to denigrate your viewpoint.
Apparently, the idea that a proton can vary in mass, size, geometry, energy is the thought that it can "absorb" gravitons. Both their mass and their momentum. So, if this could not be continuously released, the protons would "explode".
However, the mechanism used by Lawrence to separate U-235 from U-238 was tremendously successful. It raised the concentration of U-235 from 0.72% to 90%. If the protons were varying in mass, the mechanism would not have worked.
U-235 can fission but U-238 cannot. Would you explain this by saying that the two nuclei would have different structure? Or a different mass to charge ratio?
And what is charge? Is it distinct from protons and elysons? We use "charge" in chemistry but it is a tradition. It has no practical application to chemistry. The rule about charge and electron shells is violated by so many elements and functional groups that the exception is the rule.
You have the elysium in a "straightjacket" yet the protons are allowed change in any manner. Do I have your viewpoint correct or not?
Gregg Wilson
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- tvanflandern
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17 years 6 months ago #16805
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gregg</i>
<br />what is charge? Is it distinct from protons and elysons?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My answer was in the MRB "Structure of Matter in MM" paper, which I hope will be posted soon. Charge is not distinct from protons and elysium.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You have the elysium in a "straightjacket" yet the protons are allowed change in any manner. Do I have your viewpoint correct or not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I've been trying to constrain elysium, yet it seems to elude every effort to pin it down. As for protons, I've said very little. But before I accept any constraint, I need to see good cause. So much of science is vested in hunches and inspirations that don't work out.
Your statements about proton mass not varying are, for me, claims without explanations. That may be my fault -- my chemistry background is very weak. But I'd like to understand why protons can't be like grains of sand on the beach -- stastically identical, also identical in all large samples, yet individually able to have significant mass differences such that no two grains are exactly alike. How do we know that protons aren't like that too? What is there about separation experiments that assures this? -|Tom|-
<br />what is charge? Is it distinct from protons and elysons?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My answer was in the MRB "Structure of Matter in MM" paper, which I hope will be posted soon. Charge is not distinct from protons and elysium.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You have the elysium in a "straightjacket" yet the protons are allowed change in any manner. Do I have your viewpoint correct or not?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I've been trying to constrain elysium, yet it seems to elude every effort to pin it down. As for protons, I've said very little. But before I accept any constraint, I need to see good cause. So much of science is vested in hunches and inspirations that don't work out.
Your statements about proton mass not varying are, for me, claims without explanations. That may be my fault -- my chemistry background is very weak. But I'd like to understand why protons can't be like grains of sand on the beach -- stastically identical, also identical in all large samples, yet individually able to have significant mass differences such that no two grains are exactly alike. How do we know that protons aren't like that too? What is there about separation experiments that assures this? -|Tom|-
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17 years 6 months ago #19620
by Stoat
Replied by Stoat on topic Reply from Robert Turner
let's think about the ammonia maser for a second. Three equalateral hydrogen atoms with a nitrogen atom central and above them. We can push this nitrogen atom throgh the "hole to the other side. get it to vibrate at 24 gigahertz.
For the moment, let's assume that the nitrogen atom has stolen the entire electron charge from the hydrogen atoms. Not true but the hydroen atom is close to being a bare proton.
So our hydrogen atoms are moving up and down, they are accelerating and de accelerating. The molecule emmits a photon. This has to come from the nitrogen atom's electrons as I've said the hydrogen is a bare proton.
So the hydrogen protons emmit gravitons. A light speed graviton is a huge beast . I reckon that as a ball it woud be in the region of 60 metres in diameter. At the speed of light it will move a little over a centimetre in one cycle. So our protons our inside a very weak change in the gravity field.
Let's now allow ftl gravitons. These things are huge [] A low intensity field makes high frequency waves behave like particles, i.e. they have particle entropy rather than wave entropy. A light speed graviton is a low intensity field inside of an even lower intensity ftl field, it behaves like a particle.
I think that the proton's mass changes constantly about some mean value, it does it so fast though that we cannot detect it happening.
For the moment, let's assume that the nitrogen atom has stolen the entire electron charge from the hydrogen atoms. Not true but the hydroen atom is close to being a bare proton.
So our hydrogen atoms are moving up and down, they are accelerating and de accelerating. The molecule emmits a photon. This has to come from the nitrogen atom's electrons as I've said the hydrogen is a bare proton.
So the hydrogen protons emmit gravitons. A light speed graviton is a huge beast . I reckon that as a ball it woud be in the region of 60 metres in diameter. At the speed of light it will move a little over a centimetre in one cycle. So our protons our inside a very weak change in the gravity field.
Let's now allow ftl gravitons. These things are huge [] A low intensity field makes high frequency waves behave like particles, i.e. they have particle entropy rather than wave entropy. A light speed graviton is a low intensity field inside of an even lower intensity ftl field, it behaves like a particle.
I think that the proton's mass changes constantly about some mean value, it does it so fast though that we cannot detect it happening.
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- Larry Burford
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17 years 6 months ago #15020
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
<b>[Gregg] "Apparently, the idea that a proton can vary in mass, size, geometry, energy is the thought that it can "absorb" gravitons. Both their mass and their momentum. So, if this could not be continuously released, the protons would "explode".</b>
The idea that particles, in general, have properties that are not mandated by some natural principle to fall in a narrow range of values is not related to the idea that some particles can absorb other particles.
Particle property values can vary (example: the mass of individual stars varies by many orders of magnitude - but if you look at a lot of them all at once, they look remarkably similar). But this doesn't mean that the property values of all types of particles must vary. The examples you have provided (of mechanical separation techniques that SEEM to depend on the mass of individual protons falling into a narrow range) do in fact support the notion that, at least in the case of the proton, the range of mass values is narrow.
Tom (and I) would like to know more about these separation techniques to be sure (IOW, to assess for ourselves) that what seems to be the case actually is the case.
LB
The idea that particles, in general, have properties that are not mandated by some natural principle to fall in a narrow range of values is not related to the idea that some particles can absorb other particles.
Particle property values can vary (example: the mass of individual stars varies by many orders of magnitude - but if you look at a lot of them all at once, they look remarkably similar). But this doesn't mean that the property values of all types of particles must vary. The examples you have provided (of mechanical separation techniques that SEEM to depend on the mass of individual protons falling into a narrow range) do in fact support the notion that, at least in the case of the proton, the range of mass values is narrow.
Tom (and I) would like to know more about these separation techniques to be sure (IOW, to assess for ourselves) that what seems to be the case actually is the case.
LB
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