EXISTENCE (not creation) Ex Nihilo

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20 years 10 months ago #8363 by tvanflandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mac</i>
<br />[yellow]ANS: On the contrary indeed. Nobody was referring to the Big Bang.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Why is that relevant to the point? There is no matter/antimatter balance in the universe, so the energy of the universe (energy and matter being equivalent and interchangeable through E = m c^2) cannot be zero. -|Tom|-

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20 years 10 months ago #8364 by Mac
Replied by Mac on topic Reply from Dan McCoin
Tom,

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>Why is that relevant to the point? There is no matter/antimatter balance in the universe, so the energy of the universe (energy and matter being equivalent and interchangeable through E = m c^2) cannot be zero. -|Tom|-</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

ANS: This has nothing to do with matter/anti-matter. Matter/anti-matter are both condensed forms of + energy. As has been pointed out upon their contact and anhiliation one simply converts matter (+ and/or -) into unbound or uncondensed energy.

"Imagination is more important than Knowledge" -- Albert Einstien

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20 years 10 months ago #8453 by Jan
Replied by Jan on topic Reply from Jan Vink
Mac,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Matter/anti-matter are both condensed forms of + energy. As has been pointed out upon their contact and anhiliation one simply converts matter (+ and/or -) into unbound or uncondensed energy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

This matter/anti-matter concept is rather strange. For example, if matter meets anti-matter then no energy should be unleashed, i.e., their fusion should yield nothing.

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20 years 10 months ago #8365 by Messiah
Replied by Messiah on topic Reply from Jack McNally
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jrich</i><br />I hate to burst your bubble, but eternal existence lends no support to your theory.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My bubble remains intact. Eternal existence is supported by the theory - not visa versa.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I refer to theories like yours as "Accounting Theories". <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, T.O.R. IS, of course, an 'accounting theory' - it 'accounts' for <i>existence</i> by illustrating that the phenomenon of existence is reconciled with the rules of logic via a principle - not a process. How would you account for the phenomenon without accounting for it?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Popular versions claimed that by showing that some finite universe model was consistent with the 2nd Law, that creation ex nihilo was possible. Your theory seems to be an infinite universe version. You've replaced finite with infinite, <b>real nothing with logical nothing,. . .</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Logic requires definition and infinity is undefined, so it does not play well in a logical argument, BUT the concept of BOTH real and logical nothing is presented in the theory -

Consider the fractions 1/2 and 1/999,999,999,999,999. If the numerator of a fraction is finite, then regardless how large that numerator is, the ratio approaches Zero as the denominator ‘approaches' infinity. Relative to the Universe any finite value (size, distance, etc) compared to infinity yields a quotient of Zero.

Using any given point in space as an X,Y,Z axis, one may theoretically extend equidistant lines to infinity throughout the spectrum of polar coordinates. The procedure inscribes a sphere which theoretically encompasses the Universe. By definition, the selected point is the center of that sphere - and the center of the Universe. Since the same can be done for all points in the Universe, every point in the cosmos is its center - within the abstract of infinity.

If for every QUALitative value within each entity there is a reciprocal, then within the abstract of infinity each entity has no quality, size or position. They are - relative to infinity - 'Real' nothing.

Only in the relative or 'logical' realm, are they the <i>equivalent</i> of Ø - logical nothing.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
. . . creation ex nihilo with existence ex nihilo, but the essense is the same. The claim is that not only is the universe balanced, but that this balance point, this nothing, is more than just a summation or accounting, it is the source of existence.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Actually the claim is that reciprocal balance is the 'source' or basis of logic and logic is engendered by the nature of existence . . . which is natural balance.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
This assertion that relation means causation is a common logical fallacy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The entire premise of T.O.Reciprocity is that existence is NOT caused.

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20 years 10 months ago #8366 by Messiah
Replied by Messiah on topic Reply from Jack McNally
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br />On the contrary. The Big Bang predicts that equal amounts of matter and antimatter were <font color="red"><b><i>created</i></b></font id="red"> in the initial explosion. But matter dominates the present universe. Other galaxies can’t be antimatter because that would create a matter-antimatter boundary with the intergalactic medium that would create gamma rays, which are not seen. See Science 278, 226, (1997); Sci.News 158, 86, (2000). -|Tom|-

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
When you say <b><i><font color="red">created</font id="red"></i></b> do you mean <i>'brought into existence'</i> or converted from one state into another. Remember, existence is not a state of being - it is being, itself, and the word <font color="red"><i><b>created</b></i></font id="red"> has both connotations.

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20 years 10 months ago #8645 by tvanflandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Messiah</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br />The Big Bang predicts that equal amounts of matter and antimatter were <font color="red"><b><i>created</i></b></font id="red"> in the initial explosion.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">When you say <b><i><font color="red">created</font id="red"></i></b> do you mean <i>'brought into existence'</i> or converted from one state into another.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In the Big Bang, "creation" means "brought into existence <i>ex nihilo</i>".

Moreover, not just matter but also space and time themselves are created <i>ex nihilo</i>. In BB, galaxies do not move through space at cosmological speeds. Instead, more new space is being continually created <i>ex nihilo</i> between all galaxies, making them farther apart. -|Tom|-

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