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Quantized redshift anomaly
19 years 7 months ago #12463
by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
Before setting a new model, it should be good to take into account all effects deduced from simple laws of physics.
The BB is founded on two hypothesis:
- Neglecting the gravitational shifts, the frequency shifts are Doppler (or expansion)
- The CMB results from a cooling of electromagnetic energy.
It is easy, using lasers to shift the frequencies of light beams propagating in matter obeying to laws written by G. L. Lamb in the Review of Modern physics a long time ago. These shifts, which do not blur the images, may be confused with Doppler shifts, but must not be if precise experiments are done, because the relative frequency shift df/f is not strictly constant while it is in a Doppler effect. Webb and other authors found that the relative redshifts of the multiplets observed in a quasar spectrum are not strictly constant and deduced that the "fine structure constant", a fundamental constant of physics is not constant !
The theory of the shifting effect is precisely verified using lasers : energy is transferred from beams having a high temperature (deduced from Planck's law) to beams having a lower temperature. These transfers produce frequency shifts.
This effect is a "parametric effect", that is an effect in which the differences of phase of the used beams of light do not depend on the molecules making the active medium; it is difficult to fulfill this condition with ordinary light In the practice, the waves must propagate in excited atomic hydrogen (named here H*).
Taking this effect, named CREIL into account, the very complex spectrum of the quasars is completely interpreted with the simple hypothesis that a quasar is a neutron star which accretes a cloud of hydrogen.(see arxiv.org and search the paper Physics/0503070). A chemist needs much less to say: this spectrum is the spectrum of molecule X.
Therefore, the redshift of the quasars is mainly produced by the CREIL in the atomic hydrogen which surrounds this star.
There are objects named micro-quasars because their methods of detection is the same that for the quasars, but they are in our galaxy, not much redshifted. It is a probability that these fast moving objects cross clouds of hydrogen when they leave the galaxy, becoming full quasars...
The energy lost by the redshifts blueshifts low frequencies, mainly the CMB which, thus, is amplified. A small observed exception: the solar wind cools at the limits of the solar system, producing H* which redshifts the solar light. The transferred energy blueshifts the radio signals emitted by the Pioneer 10 and 11 probes, and amplifies the CMB which becomes anisotropic, this anisotropy coming from the anisotropy of the corona which emits the wind. Else, how could the anisotropy of the CMB be produced far and be bound to the ecliptic ?
The VROs (very red objects) anomalously red objects are always observed close to very hot objects (quasars) whose far UV radiation produces H* by Lyman absorptions.
And the bright, hot, much redshifted objects seem surrounded by hot dust radiating a thermal spectrum... But the stability of this dust is a problem, it is simpler to think that this thermal radiation is the counter part of the redshift !
No new physics ! No strange matter !
The BB is founded on two hypothesis:
- Neglecting the gravitational shifts, the frequency shifts are Doppler (or expansion)
- The CMB results from a cooling of electromagnetic energy.
It is easy, using lasers to shift the frequencies of light beams propagating in matter obeying to laws written by G. L. Lamb in the Review of Modern physics a long time ago. These shifts, which do not blur the images, may be confused with Doppler shifts, but must not be if precise experiments are done, because the relative frequency shift df/f is not strictly constant while it is in a Doppler effect. Webb and other authors found that the relative redshifts of the multiplets observed in a quasar spectrum are not strictly constant and deduced that the "fine structure constant", a fundamental constant of physics is not constant !
The theory of the shifting effect is precisely verified using lasers : energy is transferred from beams having a high temperature (deduced from Planck's law) to beams having a lower temperature. These transfers produce frequency shifts.
This effect is a "parametric effect", that is an effect in which the differences of phase of the used beams of light do not depend on the molecules making the active medium; it is difficult to fulfill this condition with ordinary light In the practice, the waves must propagate in excited atomic hydrogen (named here H*).
Taking this effect, named CREIL into account, the very complex spectrum of the quasars is completely interpreted with the simple hypothesis that a quasar is a neutron star which accretes a cloud of hydrogen.(see arxiv.org and search the paper Physics/0503070). A chemist needs much less to say: this spectrum is the spectrum of molecule X.
Therefore, the redshift of the quasars is mainly produced by the CREIL in the atomic hydrogen which surrounds this star.
There are objects named micro-quasars because their methods of detection is the same that for the quasars, but they are in our galaxy, not much redshifted. It is a probability that these fast moving objects cross clouds of hydrogen when they leave the galaxy, becoming full quasars...
The energy lost by the redshifts blueshifts low frequencies, mainly the CMB which, thus, is amplified. A small observed exception: the solar wind cools at the limits of the solar system, producing H* which redshifts the solar light. The transferred energy blueshifts the radio signals emitted by the Pioneer 10 and 11 probes, and amplifies the CMB which becomes anisotropic, this anisotropy coming from the anisotropy of the corona which emits the wind. Else, how could the anisotropy of the CMB be produced far and be bound to the ecliptic ?
The VROs (very red objects) anomalously red objects are always observed close to very hot objects (quasars) whose far UV radiation produces H* by Lyman absorptions.
And the bright, hot, much redshifted objects seem surrounded by hot dust radiating a thermal spectrum... But the stability of this dust is a problem, it is simpler to think that this thermal radiation is the counter part of the redshift !
No new physics ! No strange matter !
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19 years 7 months ago #12464
by Tommy
Replied by Tommy on topic Reply from Thomas Mandel
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(Jim) Co-operation is a good thing for sure, but the making of a model by this process will not improve or fix the basic problem. At this time data is being distorted to suit models that people favor and that is a bad thing because it gives the data a spin that really does (not) exist in the real universe. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I have returned from the battlefield. I gave it my all and hit them with everything I got. For a couple days the message stood, but then they deleted me. These people do not play fair. But at least I know how it feels. It feels like when someone broke into my house and stole my computer. I did not want to go back to my house.
I think we can assume that having an alternative model (theory) while necessary is not sufficient. They refuse to "look through the telescope" I think that we can assume that they will stop at nothing to stop us. Our only hope is that they shhot themselves in the foot and self-destruct...
Besides, where is the alternative theory? Is it the steady state? The quasi steady state? Why haven't I run into it? In every book I read the Big Bang is the only theory. Interestingly, the inflationists Guth and Linde both claim that the big bang as an explosion has been falsified, and hence their inflation models. Models that suspend the laws of physics, Universe expands, then the laws kick in again...
The only other alternative view is EMF (Plasma). But it is not really an alternative to Gravity, more like a complement. But I think that if one looks around, while gravity plays a significant role in our universe, organization through electromagnetic fields also plays a significant role. Gravity by itself is not much of an organization maker.
It is not likely that the alternative to the Big Bang will be this or that particular theory. It is more likely that an alternative theory will require input from all of the various data producers.
Thus a serious effort to be ready when the Big Bang blows up on them will require the efforts and cooperation of many cosmologists. As it is, the Big Bangers stick together, right or wrong, while the opposing team is divided into bits and pieces here and there arguing amonst themselves.
One way out of this impasse could be the "Problematique", a modeling technique adapted to the multi-perspectual requirements of a whole system. No longer is it enough to study and understand this or that part, now the time has come to discover how these parts work together. They do not, as is assumed in Western science, evolve by being victorious over the others. Electrons and protons do not compete with eachother. And if the Proton does absorb the electron, it does not become a stronger proton, it becomes a neutron. Instead electrons and protons work together in various ways. This is a well known principle outside of Western science
There is one thing missing from all previous theories - the ZPE et al.
While the name may ultimately be imprecise, existence of this source of energy is a fact. But whether it is called the fifth dimension, the ground dimension, the quantum ground, quantum foam, Dirac Sea or any of the myriad other names ascribed to it throughout history, it has become something that Western science cannot ignore any longer. It is not a matter for cosmology only, all of physics, all of chemistry, all of biology must take this "something else" into consideration. It is the one "something else" that all of Western science disregards.
An energy source inside space would paint an entirely different picture of cosmology. Because instead of the source of all energy being located at a particular point and time, the source of all energy would be located everywhere all the time.
As far as how do we measure it? I think of it as a Pure Energy, or energy not doing anything. So we wouldn't be able to detect it. For example, imagine a radio receiving a signal which can be traced as it moves through the radio. However, the power for the radio comes from the battery, and if we were to use our signal tracer at the battery we wouldn't find any signal. Another way to look at it, I read, is that the ZPE is everywhere, so no difference will be found.
What we will be able to detect, I humbly submit, is how it interfaces with our ordinary reality. For example, we may be able to find it emerging as Maxwell's displacement currents. Currents that were discarded when mainstream Western science disposed of the ether. But when the ether came back under a different name, the displacement currents still have been disregarded.
I wonder if we want to get rid of all the Big Bang, perhaps it is only the expansion part we need to purge from our thinking.
I have returned from the battlefield. I gave it my all and hit them with everything I got. For a couple days the message stood, but then they deleted me. These people do not play fair. But at least I know how it feels. It feels like when someone broke into my house and stole my computer. I did not want to go back to my house.
I think we can assume that having an alternative model (theory) while necessary is not sufficient. They refuse to "look through the telescope" I think that we can assume that they will stop at nothing to stop us. Our only hope is that they shhot themselves in the foot and self-destruct...
Besides, where is the alternative theory? Is it the steady state? The quasi steady state? Why haven't I run into it? In every book I read the Big Bang is the only theory. Interestingly, the inflationists Guth and Linde both claim that the big bang as an explosion has been falsified, and hence their inflation models. Models that suspend the laws of physics, Universe expands, then the laws kick in again...
The only other alternative view is EMF (Plasma). But it is not really an alternative to Gravity, more like a complement. But I think that if one looks around, while gravity plays a significant role in our universe, organization through electromagnetic fields also plays a significant role. Gravity by itself is not much of an organization maker.
It is not likely that the alternative to the Big Bang will be this or that particular theory. It is more likely that an alternative theory will require input from all of the various data producers.
Thus a serious effort to be ready when the Big Bang blows up on them will require the efforts and cooperation of many cosmologists. As it is, the Big Bangers stick together, right or wrong, while the opposing team is divided into bits and pieces here and there arguing amonst themselves.
One way out of this impasse could be the "Problematique", a modeling technique adapted to the multi-perspectual requirements of a whole system. No longer is it enough to study and understand this or that part, now the time has come to discover how these parts work together. They do not, as is assumed in Western science, evolve by being victorious over the others. Electrons and protons do not compete with eachother. And if the Proton does absorb the electron, it does not become a stronger proton, it becomes a neutron. Instead electrons and protons work together in various ways. This is a well known principle outside of Western science
There is one thing missing from all previous theories - the ZPE et al.
While the name may ultimately be imprecise, existence of this source of energy is a fact. But whether it is called the fifth dimension, the ground dimension, the quantum ground, quantum foam, Dirac Sea or any of the myriad other names ascribed to it throughout history, it has become something that Western science cannot ignore any longer. It is not a matter for cosmology only, all of physics, all of chemistry, all of biology must take this "something else" into consideration. It is the one "something else" that all of Western science disregards.
An energy source inside space would paint an entirely different picture of cosmology. Because instead of the source of all energy being located at a particular point and time, the source of all energy would be located everywhere all the time.
As far as how do we measure it? I think of it as a Pure Energy, or energy not doing anything. So we wouldn't be able to detect it. For example, imagine a radio receiving a signal which can be traced as it moves through the radio. However, the power for the radio comes from the battery, and if we were to use our signal tracer at the battery we wouldn't find any signal. Another way to look at it, I read, is that the ZPE is everywhere, so no difference will be found.
What we will be able to detect, I humbly submit, is how it interfaces with our ordinary reality. For example, we may be able to find it emerging as Maxwell's displacement currents. Currents that were discarded when mainstream Western science disposed of the ether. But when the ether came back under a different name, the displacement currents still have been disregarded.
I wonder if we want to get rid of all the Big Bang, perhaps it is only the expansion part we need to purge from our thinking.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
19 years 7 months ago #13200
by Tommy
Replied by Tommy on topic Reply from Thomas Mandel
adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query...high=3abd925d4714244
NASA ADS Astronomy/Planetary Abstract Service
Title:
Possible Interpretations of the Magnitude-Redshift Relation for Supernovae of Type IA
Authors:
Banerjee, S. K.; Narlikar, J. V.; Wickramasinghe, N. C.; Hoyle, F.; Burbidge, G.
Affiliation:
AA(Inter-University Centre for Astronomy and Astrophysics, Pune, India), AB(Inter-University Centre for Astronomy and Astrophysics, Pune, India), AC(School of Mathematics, University of Wales, Cardiff, Senghennydd, Cardiff, Wales, UK), AD(102 Admirals Walk, West Cliff, Bournemouth, Dorset, England, UK), AE(Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences and Department of Physics, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92093)
Journal:
The Astronomical Journal, Volume 119, Issue 6, pp. 2583-2588. (AJ Homepage)
Publication Date:
06/2000
Origin:
UCP
AJ Keywords:
Cosmology: Observations, Cosmology: Theory, ISM: Dust, Extinction, Stars: Supernovae: General
Abstract Copyright:
(c) 2000: The American Astronomical Society
DOI:
10.1086/301369
Bibliographic Code:
2000AJ....119.2583B
Abstract
It has been shown by Riess et al. and Perlmutter et al. that the observed redshift-magnitude relation for supernovae of type Ia, which suggests that the deceleration parameter q0 is negative, can be explained in a Friedmann model with a positive cosmological constant. We show that a quasi-steady state cosmology (QSSC) model can also fit the supernova data. Since most of the emphasis and publicity have been concentrated on explanations involving the Friedmann model, we show how a good fit can be obtained to the observations in the framework of the QSSC. Using this model, we show that absorption due to intergalactic dust may play an important role. This may explain why a few of the supernovae observed show large deviations from the curve determined by the majority of the data.
Title:
Time Dilation in the Supernova Light Curve and the Variable Mass Hypothesis
Authors:
Narlikar, J. V.; Arp, H. C.
Journal:
Astrophysical Journal Letters v.482, p.L119 (ApJ Homepage)
Publication Date:
06/1997
Origin:
APJ
ApJ Keywords:
COSMOLOGY: OBSERVATIONS, GALAXIES: DISTANCES AND REDSHIFTS, STARS: SUPERNOVAE: GENERAL, STARS: SUPERNOVAE: INDIVIDUAL ALPHANUMERIC: SN 1995K
Abstract Copyright:
(c) 1997: The American Astronomical Society
DOI:
10.1086/310718
Bibliographic Code:
1997ApJ...482L.119N
Abstract
The recently reported time dilation effect in Type Ia supernova SN 1995K has been claimed to rule out the static universe model of Narlikar & Arp. It is shown here that the variable mass hypothesis which accounts for the redshift phenomenon in the above static universe model does indeed predict the observed effect and that there is no conflict between the data of Leibundgut et al. and the predictions of this model.
<hr noshade size="1">
www.haltonarp.com/Articles/PDF/is_physics_changing.pdf
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"But more than 20 years ago I left my of-
fice at Santa Barbara St. and went down to campus
to ask Dick Feynman his opinion. After a considerable
talk, not all of which I understood, he summed
up by saying: ”The Hoyle-Narlikar theory is a complete
theory and is not contradicted in any respect.
But we do not need it because our present theory
explains everything. ” There is always the chance he
was putting me on a bit but I feel strongly that he
could see the evidence today he would say we need
it."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
NASA ADS Astronomy/Planetary Abstract Service
Title:
Possible Interpretations of the Magnitude-Redshift Relation for Supernovae of Type IA
Authors:
Banerjee, S. K.; Narlikar, J. V.; Wickramasinghe, N. C.; Hoyle, F.; Burbidge, G.
Affiliation:
AA(Inter-University Centre for Astronomy and Astrophysics, Pune, India), AB(Inter-University Centre for Astronomy and Astrophysics, Pune, India), AC(School of Mathematics, University of Wales, Cardiff, Senghennydd, Cardiff, Wales, UK), AD(102 Admirals Walk, West Cliff, Bournemouth, Dorset, England, UK), AE(Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences and Department of Physics, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92093)
Journal:
The Astronomical Journal, Volume 119, Issue 6, pp. 2583-2588. (AJ Homepage)
Publication Date:
06/2000
Origin:
UCP
AJ Keywords:
Cosmology: Observations, Cosmology: Theory, ISM: Dust, Extinction, Stars: Supernovae: General
Abstract Copyright:
(c) 2000: The American Astronomical Society
DOI:
10.1086/301369
Bibliographic Code:
2000AJ....119.2583B
Abstract
It has been shown by Riess et al. and Perlmutter et al. that the observed redshift-magnitude relation for supernovae of type Ia, which suggests that the deceleration parameter q0 is negative, can be explained in a Friedmann model with a positive cosmological constant. We show that a quasi-steady state cosmology (QSSC) model can also fit the supernova data. Since most of the emphasis and publicity have been concentrated on explanations involving the Friedmann model, we show how a good fit can be obtained to the observations in the framework of the QSSC. Using this model, we show that absorption due to intergalactic dust may play an important role. This may explain why a few of the supernovae observed show large deviations from the curve determined by the majority of the data.
Title:
Time Dilation in the Supernova Light Curve and the Variable Mass Hypothesis
Authors:
Narlikar, J. V.; Arp, H. C.
Journal:
Astrophysical Journal Letters v.482, p.L119 (ApJ Homepage)
Publication Date:
06/1997
Origin:
APJ
ApJ Keywords:
COSMOLOGY: OBSERVATIONS, GALAXIES: DISTANCES AND REDSHIFTS, STARS: SUPERNOVAE: GENERAL, STARS: SUPERNOVAE: INDIVIDUAL ALPHANUMERIC: SN 1995K
Abstract Copyright:
(c) 1997: The American Astronomical Society
DOI:
10.1086/310718
Bibliographic Code:
1997ApJ...482L.119N
Abstract
The recently reported time dilation effect in Type Ia supernova SN 1995K has been claimed to rule out the static universe model of Narlikar & Arp. It is shown here that the variable mass hypothesis which accounts for the redshift phenomenon in the above static universe model does indeed predict the observed effect and that there is no conflict between the data of Leibundgut et al. and the predictions of this model.
<hr noshade size="1">
www.haltonarp.com/Articles/PDF/is_physics_changing.pdf
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"But more than 20 years ago I left my of-
fice at Santa Barbara St. and went down to campus
to ask Dick Feynman his opinion. After a considerable
talk, not all of which I understood, he summed
up by saying: ”The Hoyle-Narlikar theory is a complete
theory and is not contradicted in any respect.
But we do not need it because our present theory
explains everything. ” There is always the chance he
was putting me on a bit but I feel strongly that he
could see the evidence today he would say we need
it."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
19 years 7 months ago #12465
by Tommy
Replied by Tommy on topic Reply from Thomas Mandel
Astronomy By Press Release <font size="3"><b><center>- News From A Black Hole
By Halton C. Arp,
Max-Planck-Institut fur Astrophysik, 85741 Garching, Germany
Published here on Feb 4th, 2005 @ 18:00 </center></b></font id="size3">
Since the force of gravity varies as the square of the inverse distance between objects why not make the ultimate extrapolation and let the distance go to zero? You get a LOT of density. Maybe it goes BOOM! But wait a minute, maybe it goes in the opposite direction and goes MOOB! Whatever. Most astronomers decided anyway that this was the only source that could explain the observed jets and explosions in galaxies. Of course it gets very complicated. Also there are a few annoying details right from the beginning:
If you watch a Black Hole form, it takes an infinity of time for something to fall in. So Instead of everything falling in it looks like nothing ever falls ”in”. The orthodox answer is that, well, it comes as close as you want. (But maybe not in a Big Bang Universe that is only 15 billion years old.)
Then again how would you like a black hole of 10 billion solar masses (the mass of a whole galaxy) completely formed only a billion years from the Big Bang beginning? The discoverers spoke freely in the popular press1 but typically only mentioned in one sentence in the the journal paper as: . . . formation of such a high M black hole after ~ 1Gyr is difficult to understand.2
Accretion processes onto Black Holes are supposed to enable them to radiate high energy X-rays. When X-ray telescopes found strong X-ray sources in galaxies they said, aha, this is too strong to be an X-ray star so it must be a black hole in orbit around a star - a binary with a massive black hole revolving around it. Discovery of these now MASSIVE Black holes was so exciting that innumerable papers have appeared showing the X-ray positions and deep photographs at the positions the objects.
Strangely, when these objects were seen optically no one took spectra in order to see what they actually were. Finally a paper appeared in a refereed Journal3 where the authors showed the spectra of two of them to be that of high redshift quasars! Just to cement the case they looked at previously identified quasar in or close to galaxies and in 24 out of 24 cases the quasars belonged to the class of Ultra Luminous X-ray Sources.
This result is a double disaster in that the massive Black Holes turned out to be high redshift quasars, not a Black Hole in a binary star. Perhaps worse, they have been accepted as members of nearby galaxies and therefore cannot be out at the edge of the universe. Bye bye Big Bang and all that fundamental physics. (This result was not put out as a press release.)
What was put out recently as a press release was the observation of Xray outbursts at the center of a galaxy. This was heralded as gas spinning around a Black Hole4. This is the classical interpretation of + and - redshifts as orbital velocities instead of opposite ejection velocities. I noticed they say the photons go ”down in frequency” (translation: they are redshifted) by climbing out of the gravitational hole. If so, the lines would be smeared out by gravitational gradients. It sounds to me like good old fashioned intrinsic redshifts.
Ironically, the galaxy is a well known, very active galaxy called NGC 3516. Previously published results5, reprinted here in Fig. 1, show apparently ejected X-ray sources are really high redshift quasars. Perhaps those quoted in the news story should consider whether they have instead observed ejection of new quasars which are evolving into new galaxies as they travel outward.
Ever more recent press releases report the finding in cosmic microwave backgound radiation, of cooler spots about one degree radius around supposedly very distant galaxy clusters6. One of the authors was quoted as saying Our results may ultimately undermine the belief that the Universe is dominated by a cold dark matter particle and even more enigmatic dark energy. Well that is standard closing for many press releases. But seriously, the 1 degree radius agrees with observed quasar families evidentially being ejected from active parent galaxies6. and example in Fig.1 here. How does this connect?
Ejections from Black Holes are hypothesized to come about when a star or other object falls splat against the surface of a black hole (or accretion disk). But whole quasars and proto galaxies which evolve into normal galaxies out of the fraction that escapes coherently are too much to ask for. Hence the rejection of Ambarzumian’s observational conclusion around 1959 that new galaxies were born out of old galaxies. And thus leading to the importance of ejection of low particle mass seed galaxies which also accounts for the high redshifts7. It would be natural to think that nearby cool spots on the sky as large as the 1 degree radius observed have something to do with the associations of nearby parent galaxies with evolving quasars and galaxies.
But to get down to the fundamental assumptions involved, I remember an Astrophysics lunch at Cal Tech about 30 years ago. Stephen Hawking sat across the table from several of us who were discussing observations of ejection of new galaxies from the compact nuclei of active galaxies. Nothing of this ever crept into Hawking’s assumptions about Black Holes. Only very recently has he abandoned his dictum that nothing comes out of Black Holes and famously now concedes that a ”little bit” does come out. Meanwhile, in the many intervening years, stunning new evidence has emerged on the White Hole propensities of nature. Its only failure I can see is not getting into the press releases.
Halton Arp
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Astrophysik
85741 Garching
Germany
Figure 1
By Halton C. Arp,
Max-Planck-Institut fur Astrophysik, 85741 Garching, Germany
Published here on Feb 4th, 2005 @ 18:00 </center></b></font id="size3">
Since the force of gravity varies as the square of the inverse distance between objects why not make the ultimate extrapolation and let the distance go to zero? You get a LOT of density. Maybe it goes BOOM! But wait a minute, maybe it goes in the opposite direction and goes MOOB! Whatever. Most astronomers decided anyway that this was the only source that could explain the observed jets and explosions in galaxies. Of course it gets very complicated. Also there are a few annoying details right from the beginning:
If you watch a Black Hole form, it takes an infinity of time for something to fall in. So Instead of everything falling in it looks like nothing ever falls ”in”. The orthodox answer is that, well, it comes as close as you want. (But maybe not in a Big Bang Universe that is only 15 billion years old.)
Then again how would you like a black hole of 10 billion solar masses (the mass of a whole galaxy) completely formed only a billion years from the Big Bang beginning? The discoverers spoke freely in the popular press1 but typically only mentioned in one sentence in the the journal paper as: . . . formation of such a high M black hole after ~ 1Gyr is difficult to understand.2
Accretion processes onto Black Holes are supposed to enable them to radiate high energy X-rays. When X-ray telescopes found strong X-ray sources in galaxies they said, aha, this is too strong to be an X-ray star so it must be a black hole in orbit around a star - a binary with a massive black hole revolving around it. Discovery of these now MASSIVE Black holes was so exciting that innumerable papers have appeared showing the X-ray positions and deep photographs at the positions the objects.
Strangely, when these objects were seen optically no one took spectra in order to see what they actually were. Finally a paper appeared in a refereed Journal3 where the authors showed the spectra of two of them to be that of high redshift quasars! Just to cement the case they looked at previously identified quasar in or close to galaxies and in 24 out of 24 cases the quasars belonged to the class of Ultra Luminous X-ray Sources.
This result is a double disaster in that the massive Black Holes turned out to be high redshift quasars, not a Black Hole in a binary star. Perhaps worse, they have been accepted as members of nearby galaxies and therefore cannot be out at the edge of the universe. Bye bye Big Bang and all that fundamental physics. (This result was not put out as a press release.)
What was put out recently as a press release was the observation of Xray outbursts at the center of a galaxy. This was heralded as gas spinning around a Black Hole4. This is the classical interpretation of + and - redshifts as orbital velocities instead of opposite ejection velocities. I noticed they say the photons go ”down in frequency” (translation: they are redshifted) by climbing out of the gravitational hole. If so, the lines would be smeared out by gravitational gradients. It sounds to me like good old fashioned intrinsic redshifts.
Ironically, the galaxy is a well known, very active galaxy called NGC 3516. Previously published results5, reprinted here in Fig. 1, show apparently ejected X-ray sources are really high redshift quasars. Perhaps those quoted in the news story should consider whether they have instead observed ejection of new quasars which are evolving into new galaxies as they travel outward.
Ever more recent press releases report the finding in cosmic microwave backgound radiation, of cooler spots about one degree radius around supposedly very distant galaxy clusters6. One of the authors was quoted as saying Our results may ultimately undermine the belief that the Universe is dominated by a cold dark matter particle and even more enigmatic dark energy. Well that is standard closing for many press releases. But seriously, the 1 degree radius agrees with observed quasar families evidentially being ejected from active parent galaxies6. and example in Fig.1 here. How does this connect?
Ejections from Black Holes are hypothesized to come about when a star or other object falls splat against the surface of a black hole (or accretion disk). But whole quasars and proto galaxies which evolve into normal galaxies out of the fraction that escapes coherently are too much to ask for. Hence the rejection of Ambarzumian’s observational conclusion around 1959 that new galaxies were born out of old galaxies. And thus leading to the importance of ejection of low particle mass seed galaxies which also accounts for the high redshifts7. It would be natural to think that nearby cool spots on the sky as large as the 1 degree radius observed have something to do with the associations of nearby parent galaxies with evolving quasars and galaxies.
But to get down to the fundamental assumptions involved, I remember an Astrophysics lunch at Cal Tech about 30 years ago. Stephen Hawking sat across the table from several of us who were discussing observations of ejection of new galaxies from the compact nuclei of active galaxies. Nothing of this ever crept into Hawking’s assumptions about Black Holes. Only very recently has he abandoned his dictum that nothing comes out of Black Holes and famously now concedes that a ”little bit” does come out. Meanwhile, in the many intervening years, stunning new evidence has emerged on the White Hole propensities of nature. Its only failure I can see is not getting into the press releases.
Halton Arp
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Astrophysik
85741 Garching
Germany
Figure 1
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19 years 7 months ago #12466
by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tommy</i>
Besides, where is the alternative theory?
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before setting a new theory of the evolution of the Universe, it is necessary to understand the observations taking into account all what standard physics allows to explain.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Is it the steady state? The quasi steady state? Why haven't I run into it? In every book I read the Big Bang is the only theory.
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The big bang is founded on the hypothesis that the redshifts are Doppler or expansion, and that the CMB results from the expansion of a hot universe. It neglects what is called in optics the "parametric" (or "coherent") effects. These effects make a class of spectroscopy which, except for refraction, requires particular systems, but is very rich : lasers, phase conjugation mirrors, photon echoes, frequency doubling, photon splitting, ISRS, CREIL,...
The CREIL which applies to ordinary light transfers energy from hot beams to cold beams (temperatures given by Planck's law), redshifting the hot, blueshifting the cold (it is thermodynamics !). In astrophysics, the beams interact when they cross through atomic hydrogen in 2S or 2P states (notation : H*).
Answering the simple question : Where is it some H* ? solves a lot of problems, in particular it computes the periodicities from standard spectroscopy, without any introduction of parameter (see arxiv.org - section physics, 0503070)
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It is not likely that the alternative to the Big Bang will be this or that particular theory. It is more likely that an alternative theory will require input from all of the various data producers.
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It is very easy to use the CREIL, and it seems to solve all problems of redshift or thermal radiation: Where there is H* (very hot hydrogen (100 000 K) or 10 000 K + Lyman alpha pumping, or...) the beams of light are redshifted, and the thermal radiations are heated (CMB, "hot dust") or blueshifted ( radio signals from the Pioneers)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Thus a serious effort to be ready when the Big Bang blows up on them will require the efforts and cooperation of many cosmologists. As it is, the Big Bangers stick together, right or wrong, while the opposing team is divided into bits and pieces here and there arguing amonst themselves.
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I agree with this, but, after, you introduce strange hypothesis....
Besides, where is the alternative theory?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
before setting a new theory of the evolution of the Universe, it is necessary to understand the observations taking into account all what standard physics allows to explain.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Is it the steady state? The quasi steady state? Why haven't I run into it? In every book I read the Big Bang is the only theory.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The big bang is founded on the hypothesis that the redshifts are Doppler or expansion, and that the CMB results from the expansion of a hot universe. It neglects what is called in optics the "parametric" (or "coherent") effects. These effects make a class of spectroscopy which, except for refraction, requires particular systems, but is very rich : lasers, phase conjugation mirrors, photon echoes, frequency doubling, photon splitting, ISRS, CREIL,...
The CREIL which applies to ordinary light transfers energy from hot beams to cold beams (temperatures given by Planck's law), redshifting the hot, blueshifting the cold (it is thermodynamics !). In astrophysics, the beams interact when they cross through atomic hydrogen in 2S or 2P states (notation : H*).
Answering the simple question : Where is it some H* ? solves a lot of problems, in particular it computes the periodicities from standard spectroscopy, without any introduction of parameter (see arxiv.org - section physics, 0503070)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
It is not likely that the alternative to the Big Bang will be this or that particular theory. It is more likely that an alternative theory will require input from all of the various data producers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
It is very easy to use the CREIL, and it seems to solve all problems of redshift or thermal radiation: Where there is H* (very hot hydrogen (100 000 K) or 10 000 K + Lyman alpha pumping, or...) the beams of light are redshifted, and the thermal radiations are heated (CMB, "hot dust") or blueshifted ( radio signals from the Pioneers)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Thus a serious effort to be ready when the Big Bang blows up on them will require the efforts and cooperation of many cosmologists. As it is, the Big Bangers stick together, right or wrong, while the opposing team is divided into bits and pieces here and there arguing amonst themselves.
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I agree with this, but, after, you introduce strange hypothesis....
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19 years 7 months ago #12467
by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tommy</i>
It has been shown by Riess et al. and Perlmutter et al. that the observed redshift-magnitude relation for supernovae of type Ia, which suggests that the deceleration parameter q0 is negative, can be explained in a Friedmann model...
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I think that an explantation by the CREIL is easy : The brightest galaxies produce more UV light, more Lyman alpha absorption, therefore, more excited atomic hydrogen H* allowing CREIL transfers of energy, with two consequences : large redshift and amplification of the thermal radiation usually interpreted as produced by dust.
It has been shown by Riess et al. and Perlmutter et al. that the observed redshift-magnitude relation for supernovae of type Ia, which suggests that the deceleration parameter q0 is negative, can be explained in a Friedmann model...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I think that an explantation by the CREIL is easy : The brightest galaxies produce more UV light, more Lyman alpha absorption, therefore, more excited atomic hydrogen H* allowing CREIL transfers of energy, with two consequences : large redshift and amplification of the thermal radiation usually interpreted as produced by dust.
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