The entropy of systems

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by cosmicsurfer</i>
<br />...Time is an observation it is not an entity...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hello John,

If we observe that changes occur with time, then we can associate time with these changes.
A singularity is a location in space where energy tends to zero as atoms are s*****ed from their electrons and their nuclei come apart. The jet at the center of the galaxy is the result of this energy moving away from this point.
Basically, time tends to zero for a mass when its atoms turn into electromagnetic radiation.

Jim, You are right: this is all speculation, but something tells me that the force which keeps our feet on the ground is also the one which brings us closer to the center of the galaxy.

Now that I have cheered everyone up, I will be away from my computer for the next few weeks.
...See you then...

(this is funny, the word: s-t-r-i-p-p-e-d got censored.)

Hi GD and Jim, First off GD enjoy your break from the computer screen. Jim, I would agree that a continuous creation model would be highly speculative. No more so then the Big Bang theory which is an entropy model at its best. Heat death, or entropy as defined by a system reducing itself to its lowest energy level would be true in a Universe that did not cycle upon itself. However, Gravitons-the META MODEL is all about deep realities that leap beyond our static understandings of physics within a gravity field. I would say that we are about to enter a new era where we will be forced to look at why conservation of energy and second law of thermodynamics is suddenly violated by technologies that seem to operate without a power source. So, we ignore gravity---it is the weak force. I say it is the source for all subatomic forces, it is the cause of all motion and regeneration of atomic structure and it is negative entropic in that it is part of a large scale cycle. John

OK then-the universe recycles. Knowing this is also knowing nothing now known is remotely correct if the whole of the universe is to be the subject. For one thing the time factor makes no sense in that a galaxy would need maybe a trillion years just to recycle one time. The concept of entrophy is man made and not found in a recycling universe. The whole cosmology topic needs to be put in a book and placed on a shelf. Gravity is a force that does things but why not remove the force from models and look at what it does in a recycling universe? The proton or whatever you wish to call the basic mass unit has qualities we cannot grasp with current state of art tools. The proton units with other protons in ways we can just barely grasp with the models we have. It recycles and transforms in ways not seen clearly at this time.

Hi Jim, yes your point is well taken why not remove the idea of force all together and diagram out the possible route or motion such a recycling Universe might take. Exactly, entropy is not found in a balanced recycling Universe.

Valid points on protons---Standard Model of Proton was blown out of the water when they found unlimited numbers of gluon strings with quarks and antiquarks flying out during the HERA collider experiments. We have to be open minded to new ideas. The way it is now in college everything is as if they have all ready found all the answers and that is that, nothing is questioned. The re-cycle process is almost a manifold of motions---with close range circulations as found in galaxies to large scale recycling of energy that feeds the galactic vortex at maybe ftl speeds. John

ENTROPY.
=================...
Thanks to: " HFAL", " Bored chemist", Bill Skocpol and
Jim Whitescarver I corrected and wrote this article.

Entropy. / My opinion /.
=======...
1.
Henry Poincare named the conception of "entropy "
as a " surprising abstract ".
2.
Lev Landau (Dau) wrote:
" A question about the physical basis of the
entropy monotonous increasing law remains open ".
3.
The famous mathematician John von Neumann said to
"the father of information theory" Claude Shannon:
" Name it "entropy" then in discussions
you will receive solid advantage, because
nobody knows, what "entropy" basically is ".
=============..
1.
Between 1850 - 1865 Rudolf Clausius published a paper
in which he called " The energy conservation law" as
" The first law of thermodynamics". But in our nature the
heat always flows from the higher temperature to the
lower one and never back. In our everyday life we don't see
the heat itself rises from cold to hot. So, it seemed that
in thermodynamics " The energy conservation law"
wasnt kept, this law was broken. But Clausius had another
opinion. He thought: I know people believe that this process is
irreversible, but I am sure that " The energy conservation law"
is universal law and it must be correct also for thermodynamic
process. So, how can I save this law ?
Probably, in the thermodynamic process there is something
that we don't know. Maybe, there is some degradation
of the total energy in the system which never disappears .
Perhaps, there is some non-useful heat, some unseen process ,
some unknown dark energy , some another form of potential
energy/heat itself which can transform heat from the cold
body to the warm one. I will call this conception as " entropy"
and it will mean that changes of entropy (dS) can be calculated
for reversible process and may be defined as the ratio of the
quantity of energy taken up (dQ) to the thermodynamic
temperature (T), i.e. dS= dQ /T.
And because I don't know how this process goes I won't call
it as a law but as " The second principle of thermodynamics "
which says that " the entropy of an isolated system always
increases ". Another version: " No process is possible
in which the only result is the transfer of heat from a hotter
to a colder body. It is possible some reversible process which
is unknown now ."
2.
Between 1870 - 1880 Ludwig Boltzmann said:
" Clausius is right. But I can add more to his entropy conception.
First.
According to Classic physics when an isolated thermodynamic
system comes to a thermal equilibrium all particles stop their
moving. From one hand it is correct. But the system cannot be
at thermal equilibrium (in the state of thermo death) all the time.
The situation in the system must change.
Therefore I say that at the thermal equilibrium the entropy
(some unknown dark/potential energy ) of the system will
reach maximum and as a result , the thermal equilibrium
of the system will change.
Second.
I don't know how exactly the thermal equilibrium of the system
changes. But I can give probabilistic / statistical interpretation
of this changing process. I can write " The second principle of
thermodynamics" by a formula: S= k log W and this formula
says:" the entropy ( heat) of the system is the collective result of
mechanical motion and friction of all the particles (k)."
I will call it as " The second law of Thermodynamics."
3
In 1900 Max Planck said:
Clausius and Boltzmann are both right.
But all my life I worked almost exclusively on problems
related to thermodynamics. And I am sure that the " The second
law of Thermodynamics" , concerning entropy, is deeper and it
says more than is generally accepted. I am sure the Boltzmann's
probabilistic /statistical version of "The second law of
Thermodynamics " is not completed, is not final.
Please, look at the graph of the radiation curves of the " black body".
They are very similar to those curves which are calculated
by Maxwell for the velocity (i.e. energy) distribution of gas
molecules in a closed container. Could this black body radiation
problem be studied in the same way as Maxwell's ideal gas....
...electromagnetic waves ? This problem of connection between
radiation of black body and Maxwell's Electrodynamics theory
doesn't give me peace. Maxwell's theory can tell everything
about the emission, absorption and propagation of the radiation,
but nothing about the energy distribution at thermal
equilibrium. What to do? How to be ?
After trying every possible approach using traditional
classical applications of the laws of thermodynamics
I was desperated. And I was forced to consider that the
relation between entropy, Boltzmann's probability version
and Maxwell's theory is possible to solve by suggestion ,
that energy is radiated and absorbed with discrete
individual quanta particle (E= hv). So, now I must write
" The second law of Thermodynamics " by formula:
hv = k log W.
But if I look to the Clausius inequality I see that entropy
is energy divided per temperature.
So the formula hv = klogW is hv = kT logW I think.

I was so surprised and sceptical of such interpretation the
entropy that I spent years trying to explain this result
in another , less revolutionary way. It was difficult for me
to accept this formula and to understand it essence .
It was hard for me to believe in my own discovery.
==================..
My conclusion.
How to understand this formula?
Which process does formula (hv = kT logW ) describe ?
1.
In 1877 Boltzmann suggested that the energy/mass state
of a physical system (of ideal gas ) could be discreted.
This idea was written with formula: R/N=k. It means:
there are particles with energy/mass state (k) in physical
system of ideal gas . They dont move, they are in the
state of rest.
2.
In 1900 Planck followed Boltzmann's method of dividing.
Planck suggested that energy was radiated and absorbed
with discrete "energy elements" - " quantum of energy"-
- " Planck's action constant"- (h) . This fact means:
electron produces heat, setting in mechanical motion and
friction all particles. This fact is described with Planck's
formula: hv = kTlogW.
3.
In which reference frame does this process take place?
In thermodynamical reference frame of ideal gas and
black body (M. Laue called this model as Kirchhoff,s vacuum).
Now it is considered that these models are abstract ones which
do not exist in nature. On my opinion these models explain
the situation in the real Vacuum (T=0K) very well.
4.
For my opinion the formula (hv = kT logW ) says:
a)
The reason of " entropy" , the source of thermal equilibrium's
fluctuation , the source of Vacuum fluctuation is an action of
the particle /electron, which has energy: E = hv (hf).
b)
The process of Vacuum fluctuation depends on collective
motions of all particles (k) and will be successful if enough
statistical quantity of Boltzmann's particles ( kT logW)
surround the electron.
c)
Which process does the formula (hv = kT logW ) say about ?
This formula describes the possibility of realization of
macro state from micro state. This formula explains
the beginning conditions of gravitation,
the beginning conditions of star formation.
1.
hv = kT logW.
hv &gt; kT logW.
hv &lt; kT.
2.
hv --&gt; He II --&gt; He I --&gt;
( P. Kapitza , L. Landau , E.L. Andronikashvili theories).
(Superconductivity, superfluidity.)
3.
Plasma reaction... --&gt;
4.
Thermonuclear reactions ...--&gt;......etc.

d)
Thanks to Entropy the homogeneous Vacuum is broken.
Thanks to Entropy the micro process changes into
macro process.
Thanks to Entropy the stars formation takes place.
Thanks to Entropy " the ultraviolet catastrophe" is absent.
Thanks to Entropy our Milky Way doesn't change into radiation.
Thanks to Entropy the process of creating elements takes place.
Thanks to Entropy the process of evolution is going.
e)
One physicist said :" The entropy is only a shadow of energy.
Maybe now somebody can understand why entropy is a shadow.
And maybe now somebody will understand why
" The Law of conservation and transformation of energy"
is also correct for thermodynamic system.
fg)
Why is " The second law of Thermodynamics"
so universal? Because it is based on
" The Law of conservation and transformation of energy"
And this law is not the simple accounting solution of debit and credit.
The sense of this law is dipper and it says more than is usually accepted.
===========..
P.S.
It took me about three months to write this brief article.
Plus about three years searching for the key of entropy problem.
Plus about twenty-three years trying to understand the essence
of physical laws and formulas.
==============..
Best wishes.
Israel Socratus.
#
[A law] is more impressive the greater the simplicity of its
premises, the more different are the kinds of things it relates, and
the more extended its range of applicability. Therefore, the deep
impression which classical thermodynamics made on me. It is the only
physical theory of universal content, which I am convinced, that
within the framework of applicability of its basic concepts will never
be overthrown.
/ Albert Einstein/
#
The law that entropy always increases -- the second law of
thermodynamics -- holds I think, the supreme position among the laws
of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the
universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations - then so much
worse for Maxwell equations. If it is found to be contradicted by
observation - well these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes.
But if your theory is found to be against the second law of
Thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to
collapse in deepest humiliation.
/ Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington /
============================...


The secret of words 'God', 'soul ', 'religion', Existence,
'dualism of consciousness', 'human being' is hidden
in the Theory of Light quanta.

Hi Soc, Do you think Planck missed the concepts thermodynamics is based on. He wrote the book on radiation and currently it is: E=hf. There is nothing in this idea about temperature or entrophy. And since he came after all the other guys you quote you can't fault them for not knowing about that idea can you? Thermodynamics is a human effort to manipulate natural events and it works very well based on observed concepts like hot and cold. Planck has none of that. I hope this stuff gets cleared up someday-it might be like a clearing of the sky and seeing the moon for the first time.